We Failed to Block the Return of MAGA – Now What?

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build, a podcast from Convergence magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence, Cayden Mak. On this show, we are building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the ascent of authoritarianism while building the influence of change. of a genuinely progressive trend in the broad front that we need to win.

[00:00:26] Before we get started, I want to acknowledge one anonymous new [00:00:30] Movement Builder subscriber for joining Convergence this week. Convergence Magazine is an independent publication that relies on the generosity of our readers and listeners to create the rigorous, thoughtful takes you’ve come to expect from us week in and week out.

[00:00:42] Knowing that we are an independent, small team, I just want to leave you with three [00:01:00] Um, you know that I’m not one to pull my punches. This week has been really rough for a lot of reasons. Um, I’m looking forward to convening the panel that we’ve put together today, because digesting the news with others is really one of the most grounding things I think that we can offer you here at Convergence.

[00:01:19] Um, but first, a couple of headlines. Um, as the dust settles from Election Day, movement organizations have set their sights on the need to block another 20 billion sale of arms to Israel. [00:01:30] Before Congress this month is a joint resolution of disapproval on this arms sale sponsored by Senator Sanders, Welch, and Merkley.

[00:01:36] We will put a link in the show notes to more information about this and, uh, ways that you can take action and contact your legislators, uh, through our friends at ACRE and the U. S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights, um, they’re expecting a vote in the next couple of weeks, uh, before the holiday break. Buried also in this train wreck of an election were some glimmers of hope.

[00:01:57] Um, here are a few that we have gathered. Um, [00:02:00] first on the ballot measure front, nearly 75 percent of Nebraska voters approved a minimum wage hike and paid sick days. Missouri’s similar measure passed with 57. 6 percent of the vote. Seven of the 10 reproductive freedom initiatives passed. Main issue one, which limits super PAC donations to 5, per individual and entity, won by a huge margin, and Kentucky voters rebuffed a measure that would have allowed state funds to go to private schools.

[00:02:27] In a year when MAGA spent [00:02:30] 215 million on anti trans ads, Delaware will be the first state to send an out trans member of Congress to the U. S. House, Sarah McBride. Tulsa, Oklahoma, where white rioters burned down prosperous black business districts in 1921, killing upwards of 300 people, elected its first black mayor.

[00:02:47] And North Carolina. Elected a Democratic governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, and Superintendent of Public Instruction. The last being especially important because he was running against a MAGA homeschooler [00:03:00] who obviously wanted to dismantle the public education system in the state. Even where our movements took hard losses, we still built some infrastructure, built some experience, and the relationships that will serve us going forward.

[00:03:12] And we did do some work to be proud of. Uh, Florida’s abortion rights initiative, Amendment 4, needed 60 percent approval to pass, and it fell short with 57 percent of the vote. But here’s what the campaign had to say. Despite relentless government sabotage, the state’s promotion of disinformation, and anti [00:03:30] democratic attacks, Amendment 4 still received 57 percent of the vote.

[00:03:34] The people have spoken and sent a clear mandate to the legislature, repeal Florida’s extreme ban. Worth noting, the 2006 constitutional amendment in the state that established the 60 percent threshold received 57 percent of the vote. Of support from voters when it passed. So it’s perhaps, uh, you know, it’s, it’s not the outcome that we wanted, but, uh, it’s very clear that [00:04:00] these systems have been put in place for a reason.

[00:04:03] Um, and today I am joined, uh, by a panel of folks who I personally often look to, um, as I think about what the hell is going on. Um, I’m joined today by Bill Fletcher, Jr., who is a member of Convergence’s advisory board, Tobita Chow who serves on our editorial board. Kermit Thomas Jr., the Director of Political and Civic Engagement at the Grassroots Global Justice Alliance and Erin Heaney, who is Executive Director at Showing [00:04:30] Up for Racial Justice.

[00:04:31] Welcome, folks, to Block and Build. And while I do not relish what we are here to grapple with, it is a pleasure to see the four of you today and to make some time to chat.

[00:04:44] Um, uh, Let’s get right to the meat here. I know that, I mean, one of the things that I’ve been seeing a lot of and, and feeling a little bit of stress around, uh, is folks getting tugged at by the blame game that happens after every major election cycle. Um, and [00:05:00] I don’t, I don’t want to spend too much time digging into these sort of counterfactuals because I don’t think they’re useful, A.

[00:05:05] Um, but Also, I think it’s more important for us to really reflect on what happened and what we can learn, and where maybe there were missteps, um, and things that we can do better later. Um, I’ll start with Bill, but I would like each of you to kind of, you know, give us a little bit of an opener here. Tell me a little bit about what you think we can learn about ourselves and our movements from, from what just went down.

[00:05:29] [00:05:30] What are the things that have been on your mind this week? Um, yeah, let’s start with Bill and, and, and see where we go. 

[00:05:37] Bill Fletcher Jr.: Well, let’s see. First, thank you for having me on board. Um, there’s a lot to learn, and I think one of the things that’s critically important to borrow a term from the late French Marxist, Louis Althusser, is that the situation is overdetermined.

[00:05:57] That is, if there is no silver bullet, there is no [00:06:00] one answer. Um, uh, Things might’ve been different had Biden stuck by what he said he was going to do, which was be a one termer. Uh, it might’ve been different if Harris had had more than three months. Um, it certainly would’ve been different had the Gaza War not happened.

[00:06:23] Um, but it’s also the case that Harris was running [00:06:30] against inflation. incumbents around the world that have been running against inflation have been losing. Uh, so that’s another factor. Um, Harris was not one of us. She’s not a leftist or progressive. Um, and, and in her campaign, there were weaknesses, including an inability to explain the lengthy context of the economic crisis that we’re in.

[00:06:59] It [00:07:00] goes way beyond inflation. Um, and then finally, I’ve been, I’ve been beating the drum about revanchism. I’m getting sick and tired of hearing people say, if the, uh, if the Democrats had just come up with a populist economic message, we would be in the world of Shangri La now. And frankly, that’s bullshit, right?

[00:07:23] What’s being completely ignored is the growth, the way revanchism has been stoked [00:07:30] and within revanchism. The intense misogyny, uh, which I just think was off the charts. Uh, so I, I think you got to put all of that together to look at this. And unfortunately, the Harris campaign was not comparable to the French New Popular Front, which was both anti fascist as well as articulating a vision, a real, you know, a more expansive progressive vision.

[00:07:57] For where we need to go, but that’s going to be [00:08:00] our job. 

[00:08:02] Cayden Mak: Yeah, I, I, I resonate with that, that like our job is about that expansive vision. Um, uh, Erin, do you want to tap in here? What are the things that you’ve been thinking about this week? What’s, what’s been on your mind about our learnings here? 

[00:08:17] Erin Heaney: Thanks, Cayden.

[00:08:17] And good to be with everybody. This will come as no shock to anyone that knows me, but I’ve been thinking a lot about base building. You know, I think, I think our side did a, did a lot of good things. There are [00:08:30] a lot of us that put in a lot of good effort and it wasn’t enough, you know, like it was just, we weren’t big enough.

[00:08:35] You know, we were part of lots of coalitions and, you know, search reached out, we talked with two and a half million working class white people who are cross pressured by both parties and had a lot of great conversations. We like, we were in Asheville after the hurricane came through and really helped drive up turnout there.

[00:08:50] So like we did a lot of good things. Our side did a lot of great things. Um, but the problem was, it wasn’t enough. We’re not, we’re, we’re still relatively weak and I think we need to be [00:09:00] honest about that. Um, You know, I think as a left, we don’t have a strong enough ground game and we’re not society facing enough.

[00:09:07] You know, like our base building game is really, really weak right now. And this election required more from us than, than we had to be quite frank. And that doesn’t, you know, people threw down really, really hard, but at the end of the day, I think we just need to be honest that there’s, um, a lot of work ahead of us to be able to.

[00:09:24] Scale and be able to talk to people at the scale that we actually need to be able to win. So, you know, [00:09:30] it wasn’t just us. It’s not entirely on us. You know, I’m glad Bill began the conversation about the party and the weaknesses there. But I also think we need to be honest with ourselves about how weak we are and what we’ve got to do to be able to actually embed in working class communities and build much, much bigger bases.

[00:09:45] Um, yeah, so that’s what that’s what’s been on my mind this week. 

[00:09:49] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that’s some sobering but necessary thoughts about where our power actually is. Um, Kermit, what has been on your mind this week? [00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Kermit Thomas: Um, uh, wishing I had a simple answer to that question or a short one. I think, uh, uh, so, so for a lot of what I think has stood out to me the most, it’s just the, like, blatant miscalculations of where we would be, um, at this moment.

[00:10:16] Like, I don’t, I don’t think. I was in conversations where losing was, was, was not on the table or where, you know, the thought process wasn’t that, uh, you know, Dems could lose. But I, I, I don’t think that the thought process was that they would lose this, this [00:10:30] bad and this significantly. And I think. A lot of that has to do with our like misread of the terrain in the now.

[00:10:36] Um, and I think that for me feels like it’s coming from, you know, both sides, right? It’s coming from us in movement and it’s also coming from, from, from Dems and not having a clear kind of idea of where working class folks are. Uh, and, and, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that we don’t, uh, talk to them, um, that we’re not in space with them.

[00:10:56] Uh, but, uh, You know, to the base building point. Maybe we’re not in enough spaces [00:11:00] with them. Right. Um, and I think, uh, I think what is, what has really, really been sitting with me is that like, um, my hope is that what we, what we all kind of take away from this is that like, we need to have a better understanding of how the system was manipulated to get us to this point, but what it feels like is being taken in so many different ways is, is that like, yeah.

[00:11:22] You know, there could have been better ways that the campaign was run. There could have been better, uh, candidates. And I just, I don’t feel like [00:11:30] that’s the truth, right? I think, um, I think in a, in, in the, well, let me, let me quantify that. I feel like that’s a true personally. I feel like in a, in a democratic space, that was the best version of a campaign that they could run asking for the things that they were asking for.

[00:11:44] Right. Um, and I think that to me is significant in how we move forward in the moment. Um, It was a Republican light campaign. Uh, and that’s because they seek out Republican light voters, you know? Um, [00:12:00] and, and so what I, what I would hope and what I’m thinking about so much is like, one, how do we move in a space of getting to know a working class space a lot better, but then two, you know, how, how do we also force the, the, the powers that be in, in, in the space of what we’re.

[00:12:17] You know, um, tussling with, within a two party system, how do we force the powers that be to recognize that, like, there was a, a, a huge misread of the room and not that they should just go back, reload with a new candidate and, and try [00:12:30] this again in Republican light mode. Um. 

[00:12:34] Cayden Mak: Yeah, yeah, that seems, that seems big.

[00:12:37] Uh, Toby, what’s been top of mind for you this week? 

[00:12:42] Tobita Chow: Um, so I think Bill is right that an economic populist turn from Harris wasn’t going to solve everything. Um, however, I want to add a nuance onto that, which it, it, it’s looking like the margin of victory for Trump in the swing states of Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania is actually really small.

[00:12:59] So that [00:13:00] makes me think that maybe a populist turn from Harris, like she didn’t have to go far left or anything, but a populist turn from Harris may have been enough. to win the electoral college vote. Um, that would not have fixed everything. Um, if we look at what seems to be a significant deficit in the national popular vote, uh, there are, there’s still serious problems that probably wouldn’t have been addressed by a bit of a more populous turn towards maybe like sort of, you know, Walz’s style of politics, um, in Minnesota or something like that.

[00:13:28] But maybe that could have made [00:13:30] a difference to the outcome because of the nature of the electoral college. Um, very much agree with the points that Aaron and Kermit made about, uh, the, our deficits in base building. Um, this feels pretty systemic across the, the movement. Um, Uh, one part of that is like returning to the long term patient craft of base building and grassroots organizing, which I think has taken some hits.

[00:13:57] Um, but I also think about some of the [00:14:00] key moments of crisis that were very widely and deeply felt among people in this country, where I feel like we didn’t properly capture or organize or consolidate or address. Um, and just like going back to 2020, um, I feel like we did not have a clear organizing strategy or offering around COVID.

[00:14:23] Like, there’s this huge, massive pandemic. Um, The left’s solution to that crisis felt, to [00:14:30] me, felt muddled. Um, the George Floyd protests were huge. Um, but then I feel like we failed to consolidate that enormous outpouring of power. And that was part of the, the backlash in Democrats and liberal establishment turn to the right, was when they, I feel like they realized, They’ve been really intimidated by the George Floyd protests, then they discovered that, like, Oh, the left has, like, not established anything long lasting from this.

[00:14:59] We don’t have to worry [00:15:00] about that anymore, or something like that. Um, inflation, um, uh, uh, I feel like, similarly there, what was our agenda? What was our answer to inflation? Um, yeah, so those, I think, are some missed moments. Um, I don’t think though that this is like a matter of this or that leader organization doing something wrong.

[00:15:23] I feel like there are structural deficits, like we needed different kinds of organizations or something like that to be ready for those moments. And like, we [00:15:30] need to think about what that means going forward. Um, last point I’ll make, and, uh, shockingly for anyone who knows me, is I feel like there’s serious deficits around internationalism, um, and that played out seriously in this election.

[00:15:42] So, of course, of course, uh, there’s, uh, the genocide in Gaza. Um, also under this heading, I would, uh, put the right word turn on immigration, which I think we need to understand is an internationalist issue and not just an issue of borders. People’s rights within the borders of the United States. This is [00:16:00] a, this, this has to be understood as an internationalist issue.

[00:16:03] Um, and also finally is, uh, the Democrats embrace of anti China nationalism and great power conflict. Um, this is something that I’ve worked on and I feel, uh, We continue to be underprepared to deal with this. Um, this wasn’t a hot button issue within the election, but I think it did play a role in weakening, creating problems and [00:16:30] contradictions within the Biden agenda, namely in that, um, Bidenomics, which was supposed to be their big populist appeal, um, the, I feel that the dominant principle within Bidenomics was U.

[00:16:44] S. China competition, which includes strengthening, mainly includes strengthening, uh, the sections of U. S. capital that are seen as most strategic against their rivals in China. And so it’s a kind of corporate nationalism that [00:17:00] had this sort of working class populism tacked onto it. that ended up being quite weak and ineffective, um, and in order to get, in order to, Build real alternatives, uh, that takes, uh, uh, more powerful progressive internationalism.

[00:17:16] Cayden Mak: Thank you. Yeah, I, I think one of the interesting through lines that I’m seeing from all four of you is this sort of, uh, trying to find this balance between like, what can we take action on now? And also [00:17:30] what is the sort of like structural deficit that we’ve been working with for much longer than a single election cycle?

[00:17:36] And I think that like, for me, this is the kind of conversation that. I desperately want to see more of on the left because, like, I do think that, um, you know, one of the things that we got to be honest about here is, is this question about how much power do we actually have, right? That like, there is a way that I think.

[00:17:57] The blame game does, [00:18:00] like, elide that in a lot of ways. Um, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m curious if any of you have anything, uh, that you want to lift up that, that you heard or that you want to respond to. Um, yeah, Bill, go ahead. 

[00:18:12] Bill Fletcher Jr.: Yeah, a couple of things. So, I wouldn’t describe the Harris campaign as Republican like. Um, I mean, there’s some really interesting things about the whole Biden Harris, uh, era.

[00:18:26] Go ahead. Um, that [00:18:30] are different from like Obama and Clinton for sure. Uh, I mean, the, the approach to the COVID pandemic, and I want to say something about COVID in a second, and an economic collapse of 2020 was very different than Obama’s response to the 2008 collapse, and there was major say something about COVID in a second, and an economic collapse of 2020 was very different than Obama’s response to the 2008 collapse, and there was major Um, major investments made, and [00:19:00] this is one of the reasons that the economic argument by itself is problematic because in economic investments were made, uh, particularly in areas of actually Republican dominated areas.

[00:19:12] And it didn’t turn people anti MAGA. Um, Harris did something during the campaign that I’d never seen, which is that when the dock workers went on strike, she not only supported them, but condemned management. Um, [00:19:30] I never expected that. Uh, I was involved a couple of years ago in organizing minor league baseball players and they were successful in becoming unionized and clearly this, there was support from, uh, Biden in ways that would never have happened under.

[00:19:50] Uh, under Trump for sure and not happen under Obama, so something was different, and I think we gotta talk about that at some point, [00:20:00] um, the other, and this is leaving aside whether Harris was correct to ally with Liz Cheney, um, the other thing that we’re not talking much about, uh, but it was something you just raised, told me that made me think about it, is that I actually think that this country has gone through national PTSD, uh, As a result of the COVID pandemic that had a major impact [00:20:30] on the elections.

[00:20:31] And it’s, so it’s not just the inflation, but the entire experience of losing more than a million people, uh, to death and millions more, um, affected by infected by, I’m not sure the country has gotten over that. Or even knew how to process that. And I had the suspicion, although I’m not ready to [00:21:00] theorize it.

[00:21:01] That it played a very significant role in the election. 

[00:21:06] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I mean, I, I resonate with that too. I mean, I don’t know how it couldn’t, you know, the fact that also over the summer, we saw this huge COVID surge, right. Where, um, more, there were like, there was a couple of weeks where there were more new infections than there’d been basically at any time in the pandemic previously, and that was the summer, right.

[00:21:25] Like in the thick of. Uh, primary season, [00:21:30] um, and, you know, I, I have the feeling that, that. You are right on some level about this bill that like we haven’t digested it, right? Um, Erin, do you want to tap in here? 

[00:21:44] Erin Heaney: Yeah, I mean, maybe continue to just speak to how people make meaning and the suffering people go through.

[00:21:49] I mean, I think the point that Toby made about like the need to both both return to like good old fashioned base building organizing, that’s the long slog. But also the need to be able to take advantage and help [00:22:00] people make meaning in real crisis moments. I think one of the other dynamics that we were pretty involved in was like, you know, there were two hurricanes during this election as well.

[00:22:10] And, you know, this is a dynamic that we’ve seen played out outside of this election cycle as well. But it’s like, you know, the right has been very skilled at swooping in when folk, in the aftermath of climate change. Just disasters to literally be with people, provide, you know, housing, clothing, food for people as an entry [00:22:30] point into, you know, the political project that they’re up to.

[00:22:33] And so I think it’s just like another example of a dynamic that was happening. I think we’ve got to be paying attention to, cause that’s, that is not going to stop in the, in the coming years, in the years to come. And so I think that’s also just really, really important that we’re continuing to, um, contend in moments of crisis when people’s.

[00:22:51] when people are really up for grabs and experiencing crisis. So, just wanted to double down on that point that Toby made.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:02] Cayden Mak: Yeah, I think, I think that the, you know, the right wing playbook around You know, disaster capitalism also is like, not, it’s not, it’s not new. It’s also not a mystery. Um, and like the, our ability to, to take advantage, I guess, take advantage of that situation kind of feels icky for me to say, but like really like get in there and like build with people at a moment that [00:23:30] also then allows us to resist the sort of more structural transformations that.

[00:23:34] May take place after a disaster like that also seems like a huge opportunity not to leave on the table

[00:23:44] Um, one of the things I also want to draw out here, you know, obviously it’s hard to gloss over the presidential race because, uh, there’s a lot going on there, but obviously the Senate flipped, right? There’s a lot of other, I think we’re still at time of recording. We still [00:24:00] not sure what’s going to happen in the House of Representatives, but there’s a lot down ballot, um, that, um, has some major strategic impact on, um, how we approach the future.

[00:24:12] I’m curious if, if any of the four of you have been, uh, paying attention to some specific races or some specific down ballot things that you think may be bellwethers or there, there are places that we might, uh, learn something from, um, besides the presidential race, because I think that [00:24:30] there’s, you know, there’s a hanging in the balance here besides the white house.

[00:24:42] Bill Fletcher Jr.: You want to call on somebody now? 

[00:24:43] Cayden Mak: Uh, sure. Uh, Toby, do you have, do you have any things that you’re thinking about, especially legislatively? Um, anything else? You just muted yourself again. I got you. 

[00:24:59] Tobita Chow: Non valid [00:25:00] races. I wasn’t paying close attention to, uh, this time around. Uh, however, there are some important.

[00:25:11] Trends, I think, uh, that’ll be important going forward, um, one is the, uh, number of cases where, uh, it seems like in a lot of states, there were people who turned out, significant numbers of people who turned out to vote for Trump, but just ignored down ballot. Um, and this could be [00:25:30] significant in the midterms.

[00:25:32] Um, assuming we can make sure we have midterms, which, you know, we can’t necessarily take for granted, but I feel, I feel, I feel decent about our chances about actually continue to have elections in, in 26.

[00:25:46] Cayden Mak: Uh, Billy got something for us? 

[00:25:49] Bill Fletcher Jr.: Um, The contradictory impulses in people in the electorate, uh, so that you’d have, [00:26:00] Uh, on the Florida abortion ballot, 57%, they needed 60%, uh, to, to get over the threshold. Uh, but 57%, um, and that in a state that Trump took, um, and you’ve seen that in other places as well. So there are these like contradictory, uh, notions.

[00:26:24] As you mentioned stuff in the beginning about. Some of the states where there have been other, [00:26:30] uh, initiatives that have passed. So we’re not looking at a consolidated fascist ideological hegemony, but we are looking at a willingness of millions of people to vote for a rapist. Um, and I think that, you know, many of us on the left have been [00:27:00] unwilling to recognize.

[00:27:02] That there’s a lot of bad people out there and, and, and we were taken in too much by, I think the Occupy slogan about the 99% against the 1%. It ain’t just the 1%. The 1% may be the ones that own everything, but they have a real social base. They have supporters, they have people that are, to borrow the phrase, plugged into the matrix.

[00:27:28] And, uh, [00:27:30] and we gotta deal with that. Um, you know, we have to deal with. that people would laugh and tolerate the kind of racist humor that took place at Madison Square Garden, thinking nothing of it, thinking that it’s funny. Um, and that, uh, yeah, I guess I’m gonna leave it there.

[00:27:56] Cayden Mak: Yeah, there’s, I mean, there, there are these like very crucial cultural [00:28:00] pieces to look at as well as part of this. Uh, Kermit, do you have a thought here? 

[00:28:05] Kermit Thomas: Yeah, I think, um, I think that’s the, the contradiction of the moment, right? I think there was a ton of A ton of like reality here that folks tapped into, to, to self determination, right?

[00:28:18] They tapped into this idea that like, they don’t have to, uh, be as concerned or critical of who holds a spot, uh, in, uh, in the executive office because they can [00:28:30] be particularly determinant about what is happening, uh, at home or in the state where they live. And I think that was evident in how folks talked about voting for Trump after the fact that how, how the number showed out, uh, in terms of, uh, you know, Women voting in line with, with reproductive rights in states, and then also voting in line, voting for, for Donald Trump, uh, On that same, on that same ballot.

[00:28:52] So I, I think what, what we’re able, what they were able to take advantage of in this moment is, is this idea that like, you are, [00:29:00] uh, responsible for yourself and we can give you the tools to, to, to continue to take care of yourself without, without needing to do it within a space of larger community. And I think that’s the dichotomy and the struggle that, that, that exists, um, within the democratic party as a whole.

[00:29:17] And so many of the conversations it’s. There’s, there’s a reality here that we’re, we’re pushing for folks to feel as a part of a community in which a lot of folks are [00:29:30] asking for that. Um, they’re asking to be a part of the community of the United States, but not necessarily a part of a community that exists outside of that frame.

[00:29:39] Um, and I think the other piece of that, um, you know, I’m, I’m sitting with what some, some of what Bill offered in terms of the, the reality of who Biden and who. Uh, Harris were as candidates and what they put forward and how different that was from, from what we’ve seen before. [00:30:00] I, I agree in context, but I also think that’s a part of the struggle there, right?

[00:30:04] The, the, the internal struggle that exists within the party itself. My, my, my classification of, of the campaign from a Republican light standpoint is, is, is also that like the voters that they were putting time and energy into mobilizing move and moving were conservative voters. Uh, and they’re often conservative voters from a democratic, democratic standpoint.

[00:30:24] What we’re often trying to do is move voters who we know are more likely to vote. And those voters tend to be [00:30:30] conservative voters. And so because of that, the platforms that they stand on tend to shift more and more to the right, every opportunity they get, which is the struggle of the system itself. So I’m, I’m, I’m sitting in all of that and thinking about how all of those things add up.

[00:30:43] And maybe for these, for these things that are down ballot, where we’re having these conversations, folks are not, not maybe, I mean, it’s clear they’re not viewing those as democratic issues as much as they’re viewing those as issues that they have the opportunity to control. Um, and that’s where they’re putting their, their energy and time in.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Cayden Mak: That makes sense to me. I mean, it seems, it does seem that especially, like, in a presidential year that so much of, of the discourse that probably, like, gets to people who are not, like, deeply enmeshed in organizing and social movements the way that we five are, are, uh, about the sort of mythology of the presidency as an office also, right?

[00:31:22] That, like, we are really fixated on that office for good reason, right? That, like, so much [00:31:30] power has been vested in the White House, um, and has been moved away from other branches of government over the past several presidencies. Um, but at the same time, I think that, like, there is a level on which people do know what they want.

[00:31:45] The other, the other thing that, um, occurs to me, uh, and, and that I’ve, I’ve talked about with a couple of people is how little the, um, It felt like there was not a [00:32:00] lot of connection being made between, um, this huge surge in labor organizing over the past year and the role that a president, like a specific presidential administration plays in, um, supporting the like legal conditions for people to unionize.

[00:32:18] Um, and that feels like a really big omission, um, on the part of. Both the Biden campaign and the Harris campaign, to me, that, um, you know, the, the big [00:32:30] upsurge in both new unionization drives and, um, strikes that we’ve seen over the past really, like, I don’t know, 12, 18 months, um, are part of having them one of the most functional national labor relations boards and certainly in my lifetime, um, and that, that seems like a, like, leaving a lot of, a lot on the table, um, and, But, but Caden, 

[00:32:53] Bill Fletcher Jr.: I don’t think that was the problem actually of Biden and Harris.

[00:32:58] I think that was, [00:33:00] here’s the irony. Um, when you look at the examples that you just gave, uh, of, uh, a different kind of National Labor Relations Board, a different kind of Federal Labor Relations Authority, um, the kind of support that That Biden gave to, uh, workers like the auto workers that Harris gave to dock workers that Biden gave to us in, in organizing minor league baseball players.[00:33:30] 

[00:33:31] What I find curious is that that didn’t translate down. In other words, the unions and other labor activists who were involved in this. did not make more of that. You know, back in the 1930s, there was a flyer that went around. No one to this day seems to know whether it was accurate, but it became very popular.

[00:33:57] And it, and it basically was put out by the Congress of [00:34:00] Industrial Organizations. And it said, uh, if I went to work in a factory, the first thing I would do would be join a union signed Franklin Roosevelt. Now, whether he actually said that or not is irrelevant because people believed it, right? And it was something that was actively promoted by the union leadership and as well as Roosevelt himself, but particularly by people at the base.

[00:34:28] I didn’t hear much of that. [00:34:30] I didn’t hear much of, um, uh, of union leaders saying and talking with their members, not at their members, with their members about this, although it did come up in an interesting way with the dock workers, because the president of the ILA, International Longshellman’s Association, had been secretly thinking about endorsing Trump.

[00:34:54] And many of his black members in the South said no effing way. [00:35:00] Right. And they went to him and they said, uh, do you understand that the Biden labor relations board, uh, has been looking out for us? And basically the thing got blocked. But you didn’t have that in the union movement as a whole, as far as I could tell, at least.

[00:35:20] Cayden Mak: That’s interesting. Um, yeah, I, I, I appreciate that take because I, I, it, it, it. It’s like helping me sort [00:35:30] of think about, like, that interplay between, um, folks who lead in different movement spaces and, and outcomes, right? That, like, that’s not a trivial piece of the puzzle here. Um, Toby, you had another thought about, about, uh, down ballot races, yeah?

[00:35:47] Tobita Chow: Yeah, uh, so one I did pay closer attention to is the Senate race in Nebraska, uh, Dan Osborne, uh, who was a total outsider, uh, came [00:36:00] out of nowhere within Nebraska politics, a labor leader led a historic strike in Nebraska, ran as an independent, and last I checked, he outperformed Harris by 13. 5%. Still lost, but I think that that race and the level of his performance is worth looking at.

[00:36:21] Cayden Mak: Great. Yeah, that’s interesting. I had not clocked that one for sure. Um, Great. Well, I think one of the things that’s [00:36:30] also obviously on people’s minds is what comes next. Um, you know, I, I, I think that like some of the sort of like emotional processing that people have been doing, um, certainly that I’ve seen does feel very similar to 2016, but the reality is also the conditions are very different now.

[00:36:46] Um, and they were in 2016 at the beginning of the first Trump administration for a variety of reasons in, in ways that both may help us and also may harm us. Um, and so I’m curious to hear from each of you about [00:37:00] how you’re orienting to this strategic shift, uh, in this moment and, you know, preparing for January and knowing that we also need to be in motion immediately.

[00:37:11] that we have a couple of months right now to squeeze some things in. Yeah. I don’t know. Uh, maybe Kermit, do you want to start here?

[00:37:22] Kermit Thomas: Yeah. Um,

[00:37:28] I’m, I’m, [00:37:30] I think I’m adjusting in the sense that like my focus is on a couple of different things, uh, as I’m sure everyone’s is, uh, how do we base build, how do we think about bringing in the folks who are going to be so, uh, disgruntled and uncomfortable in this moment, uh, into, you The movement and figure out how to navigate, you know, what comes next from that.

[00:37:54] And then additionally, when we are, [00:38:00] when we are in this, you know, lame duck period of, of, of Biden and, uh, when we’re in this lame duck period of Biden and what is possible for him to do, how do we have those conversations about what he can protect and, and, and, uh, what can be our options as we continue to try to move this forward, um, I’m also in a space of like, open to what’s needed.

[00:38:24] I think in the movement is, is, is, is, is, uh, Is there a[00:38:30] 

[00:38:31] strategic retreat of sorts? How do we really navigate, like what this, uh, give, give ourselves an understanding of what this is truly going to look like, right. Um, to, to, to Toby’s point earlier, like, I know that we can prep for continuing to build power and saying like, who, how does 2026 look, how do we effectively move in an electoral space?

[00:38:51] You know, the, the, the strategy and the conversation that we need to be having right now are about protecting that electoral space and then understanding what is under attack in this [00:39:00] moment. I think we’ve talked a lot about project 2025 and everything that could come from it. Um, but I, I think realizing that being in place, uh, being in, uh, you know, uh, the actual reality of that, it’s going to take a moment for us to like really understand.

[00:39:15] So I don’t want us to shift into our old form in a couple of different ways. Like, I don’t want us to like, Go into a space of just being internal. But I also don’t want us to go into a space where we, you know, uh, protest so heavily that we [00:39:30] are not. really paying attention to the reality of the moment as much as we should.

[00:39:35] Uh, but yeah, that’s, that’s where my head is now on it. 

[00:39:38] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, Aaron, I’m, I’m also interested in hearing from you about, uh, you know, what Search has planned. I know that there’s been a lot of, uh, questions about how we absorb people who are going to be responding to this and are responding to this in various ways.

[00:39:57] Um, yeah. What have y’all been up to? What are you thinking about? [00:40:00] 

[00:40:00] Erin Heaney: Yeah, we switched gears real quick. So Tuesday we were, you know, talking to voters all day. And Wednesday night we had a mass absorption call and had 12, 000 people register for it. Um, 5, 000 people got on and a thousand of those people committed to like holding house parties or mass meetings in their communities.

[00:40:20] So People are definitely in their feelings. And I think part of our work right now is to absorb as many, absorb people and make as many people, um, make meaning of the moment and [00:40:30] honestly feel connected to us so that when we need them to do things, they’ll be ready and trusting and connected in some way through surge.

[00:40:36] And then, you know, we’re part of a much broader coalition that was anchored by the working families party last year. I think it was last night, yep, it’s all a blur, um, where there was, you know, 140, 000 people, uh, came together last night, you know, like 200 organizations sponsored it and it was, you know, left leaning organizations and more, you know, progressive organizations.

[00:40:56] So one part of the big united front that we’re going to need to [00:41:00] actually. Hang together over these next four years. Um, and out of that came like another 6, 000 commitments for people to hold house parties. So I think a lot of us have done a good job shifting gears very quickly to be able to absorb some of the energy and feelings that people are in right now.

[00:41:17] Um, and I think this is actually a place where we’re going to need to, um, I don’t, I’m not, I’m not convinced that this is going to be the same as 2016. I think there’s a lot of feelings right now. And, um, [00:41:30] I also think that people are not going to be pouring into our organizations as much as they were in 2016, or people may be more scared to take action.

[00:41:38] And so I think this is a real question for us as organizers is to think about what is it going to take to have people feel the connection, um, and sense of agency to, to be able to show up and do what’s going to be required of us in the next four years. So I think it’s a real thing that we’ve got to, Contend with, um, and the other thing we’ve got to contend with is, you know, continuing to build those muscles about [00:42:00] being in a united front.

[00:42:01] Like the group I named last night was still, you know, fairly progressive. And so how are we going to continue to do what we need to do to show up and, you know, in, in such a wide range of. Ideological positions and orientations and continue to, you know, be working alongside people that we vehemently disagree with on a lot of things, but we know we’re going to need to be able to fight back fascism in this moment.

[00:42:20] So I think it’s something we’re not super practice that as left and we’re going to have to continue to really get those muscles going. You know, I think we need to be really [00:42:30] thoughtful about how we use the time between now and inauguration day. I think as, as I think Kerman just said, like, we need to not just fall into reactive tactics.

[00:42:38] I think we do need to get people doing things and feeling a sense of agency, and I think we need to, we need to like, take a breath and get as organized and clear and and connected as possible before Trump, um, takes office. Um, so some of what we’re up to is like continuing to do absorption, but to also do, you know, learning and action series, we’re going to be setting something up where people [00:43:00] are going to be coming together every two weeks to be able to learn and continue to build muscles around what does it take to fight authoritarianism, you know, learning from people abroad who have faced similar, um, circumstances.

[00:43:11] Um, And then I think the other thing we got to do is I do think we should push on Biden between now and the end of the year, um, his term. Um, people have started calling this YOLO Joe. I don’t love them, but that’s what we’re doing. You know, United We Dream is, is, is pushing a bunch on immigration. And there’s a, there’s a lot of different [00:43:30] organizations that are, have demands.

[00:43:31] And I do think we should push on Biden to, to deliver as much as he can before, before he’s out. Um, You know, and I do think this, this is an opening potentially to, I mean, I think the democratic party is more battered than it was in 2016. I think that we can show that the mistakes that they made and people are more skeptical.

[00:43:50] And so, you know, I think this is also an opportunity to continue to build independent political power. And, you know, we’re members of the working families party, and I think there’s an opportunity to really. [00:44:00] Build, build the party, um, and continue to, to build independent power within and outside the, the party.

[00:44:07] So those are all the things that we’re doing in this moment. And then I, you know, to me, so I think it’s like there’s also some things that haven’t changed. Um, and that just, I, I think part of what we also have to do is to be able to get back to some of that good old fashioned organizing. To really contend in a serious way for base.

[00:44:23] And, you know, I don’t mean just talking to, you know, Trump voters, though. I do think there’s some of that we have to do. [00:44:30] There’s still large swaths of unorganized working people in this country, um, who are in places that we need to be able to win back, uh, you know, uh, governing majority in this country, whether it’s at the state level, um, or, or towards the recapturing the federal government.

[00:44:44] So I think there’s a lot of organizing of working class people that we need to get back to. Um, that is going to be required in this moment too, as we continue to maneuver, um, in response to the Trump administration. 

[00:44:56] Cayden Mak: Totally. Yeah. I mean, it’s still the case that a lot of people in this [00:45:00] country sit out elections.

[00:45:01] Um, and, uh, Knowing that there is, there’s a lot of base to build. Uh, Toby, what about you? What are you, what’s on your mind? What are you thinking about as we move into this next period? 

[00:45:14] Tobita Chow: Um, some things that we can predict coming from Trump is, uh, so first, uh, his, uh, plans to set up a mass deportation machine.

[00:45:26] Uh, so we need to prepare to different defend. Uh, [00:45:30] immigrants. Uh, that’s, that’s very clear. Um, and one thing that we can get out of that also is, uh, in, in these efforts to, uh, defend people from these authoritarian assaults, um, One thing that’s going to do is create a sense of chaos about Trump’s role. And I think this is an important factor of Trump’s appeal.

[00:45:54] He presents himself as the, as this source of order. He’s going to restore order to [00:46:00] a country that feels too chaotic. And I think by defending people against his authoritarian assaults, we can also clarify to people that like, no, actually, Uh, his authoritarian, uh, rule is not in fact a source of order. It is itself a source of further chaos, uh, within our society.

[00:46:21] Um, the, his tariff plan, uh, there’s the, he and Republicans are likely to move on some version of his [00:46:30] massive tariff plan. Uh, the last thing I saw is that there is a plan in the works, uh, within the Trump administration and in Congress. Uh, to, uh, use this massive increase in tariffs to justify a massive increase in income taxes and tariffs get turned into a tax on consumers, and that hits you harder, the poorer you are, whereas a reduction in income tax, of course, benefits the wealthy.

[00:46:56] So this is shifting the tax burden from the wealthy from corporations and [00:47:00] to, uh, working class people and poor people. So that’s a plan they have in the works. We need to get ready for that. Um, and within all of this, I think, um, we need to pair playing defense with starting to go on offense and attacking or just like displacing the establishment Democrats, the corporate nationalist Democrats, and use these moments of crisis to reveal that, you know, they do not have solutions to offer.

[00:47:28] We’re the ones with the solutions. [00:47:30] Uh, and make that clear to the masses of people. 

[00:47:34] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I think that’s all sounds quite right to me because I don’t know, the corporate Democrat response to Trump’s election has not been impressive. So um, yeah, uh, Bill, uh, what are you thinking about, about this next period?

[00:47:49] What are, what is our task and what is, what needs to shift in our strategy? 

[00:47:54] Bill Fletcher Jr.: So um, there’s an irony. Trump is going to inherit a good economy. [00:48:00] Just like he did in 2016. And, and this is, this speaks to the failure, it speaks to the undereducation of the population and the failure of many mass organizations to do good with political, um, education that people didn’t understand that there was nothing good that Trump did for the economy.

[00:48:27] In 2016, you know, 2017 to [00:48:30] 2020 and that he inherited from Obama and he’s now going to inherit from Biden. So that’s going to be an interesting challenge. We’ll have to see whether they like really screw it up. Um, I would say that, uh, sort of building on some things that have been raised that we’re going to need.

[00:48:54] A real united front, and there’s going to be two levels to a united front. There’ll be what I call an [00:49:00] objective united front in the sense that there’ll be a large number of people who will be aligned against our opponents, but aren’t necessarily working in tandem. And that’s okay. That’s the way it often is, but there needs to be something comparable to the French new popular front.

[00:49:19] There needs to be an organization. that actually pulls people together. In the last several weeks, there have been these different so called tables meeting talking about what to [00:49:30] do if this happens, what to do if that happens. I called a friend of mine last week. I said, man, I can’t figure out what the F is going on.

[00:49:37] Which of these should I go to? What’s happening? Who’s making decisions? So, we have to be a better, sort of a better way of coordinating joint work. Some of that may end up being electoral, like beginning to plan for the midterm elections, but also thinking about, um, local elections. Um, the grassroots [00:50:00] organizing that Aaron was talking about, I think, is going to remain central.

[00:50:04] So, for My Little Outfit Standing for Democracy, we want to build organizing committees that around the country to take on the right and to themselves help to build local united fronts. So that work is, is essential. Now, now here’s the scary stuff. Um, we need to start developing self defense and legal defense.

[00:50:29] Uh, we need to [00:50:30] be prepared to, uh, deal with the possible reality of death squads and deportations. And I’m not saying that to scare everybody, but I’m actually saying it to scare everybody. Um, there is, when I’m reading some of the stuff coming out of the far right, which I’ve been following since the election, they are implying death squads.

[00:50:53] Cayden Mak: Right. 

[00:50:54] Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right. And, and so we can, we can act like that’s not going to happen. Right? [00:51:00] Um, but they are implying death squads. They are implying various kinds of assassinations and other things, and they’re joking about it. Um, we need to figure out what we’re going to do and how we’re going to approach that particular kind of threat and with the potential for deportations.

[00:51:19] One of the things that I suggested recently is that there need to be almost like a community watch where people are [00:51:30] on outposts. Looking, looking out for ice and others and being prepared to respond in mass. To try to block deportation efforts where we can 

[00:51:43] Cayden Mak: now 

[00:51:43] Bill Fletcher Jr.: there’s certainly going to be a lot of legal work that needs to happen and it’s groups like the Advancement Project, the National Lawyers Guild and others that are out there that I think that we can count on for that.

[00:51:53] But the mass work is going to have to be done from by a lot of real [00:52:00] like base building organizations, except for one thing. A lot of people have forgotten how to base build. They’ve actually forgotten how to organize. And, uh, some of this happened before the pandemic, but it certainly was during the pandemic.

[00:52:16] A lot of folks just seem to have forgotten what, what’s involved in organizing. 

[00:52:22] Cayden Mak: Yeah, you know, I think on this, like, targeted political violence topic, I also think that [00:52:30] the, um, one of the things about the, the sort of, like, joking tone talking about that kind of violence is, again, part of a. Uh, like a playbook that we’ve seen before, and like, it’s sort of related to a lot of the tactics that came out of the Gamergate moment, right, that like, people joking on the internet, trying to give themselves plausible deniability around whether or not they are triggering that kind of violence, but like, I think there’s [00:53:00] an important sort of like, uh, Like a popular education thing that needs to happen.

[00:53:05] That’s like Not allowing them to write it off as oh, I was just joking and some, you know, unhinged person decided to take that up But that there’s there’s actually I also think maybe some work that we all need to do To help people see that for what it is You know too many too many people are happy to sort of take that at face value To be honest, um, and, and, you know, [00:53:30] I think that perhaps, uh, the older, like an older model of the state carrying that out may not be necessarily what we see, right?

[00:53:36] That like, uh, you know, the folks who are, um, tracking and studying the tactics and approaches of, of like far right paramilitary groups are folks who know a lot about what this looks like. We should definitely be thinking about. Um. So, you know, I, I hear all this also this refrain that like base building and organizing [00:54:00] right now is, is, uh, perhaps in a downswing.

[00:54:03] And I’m, I’m curious to hear from all of you. Obviously, Serge has been doing some of this work. Are there folks who are out there who are doing, uh, base building work? Also, you know, I think that, uh, our listeners are probably keen to figure out where they can plug in, what they can support. Um, are there organizations and folks that you want to point people to?

[00:54:22] In addition to search, um, uh, Kermit, I saw you nodding.[00:54:30] 

[00:54:31] Kermit Thomas: Yeah, uh, I, I think to, to, to Bill’s point, there’s a whole lot of, a whole lot of tables and a whole lot of conversations happening. I think what I can do is point folks to the, to the table that I’m a part of the time to act table where we’re, we’re at, we’re talking about what we need to be doing in this moment in three different capacities.

[00:54:49] So, uh, we’re talking about, um, Uh, mobilizations, we’re talking about, uh, uh, the narrative building that we need to do. And then we’re also talking about how we can [00:55:00] really focus on keeping our folks safe and kind of putting energy into that space. So I can share, uh, exactly, uh, the, the, the number for folks to text, uh, in the, in the comments.

[00:55:12] So folks can join that, join that group. 

[00:55:15] Cayden Mak: Great. Um, yeah, Erin, who else have you all been working with at Surge? We’re also 

[00:55:20] Erin Heaney: proud members of Time to Act. We’re also proud members of Standing for Democracy, so I would encourage people to jump in there. The Working Families Party has a ton of ways to get involved right now.

[00:55:29] People can and should get [00:55:30] involved with their local unions. And then I do think there’s other good groups that are doing base building work. Like I think the CPD Center for Popular Democracy has a network of organizations that’s doing base building, um, people’s action or organizations across the country are doing good organizing.

[00:55:44] And then I think where some of the best organizing is happening, it’s not on the radar nationally. There’s a lot of really good groups that are doing local base building work, um, that may not be connected to national infrastructure yet. So, um, I think there, there is. There’s not enough of it happening and there are definitely pockets and places where [00:56:00] people, um, where people are doing good work.

[00:56:02] Cayden Mak: Totally. Uh, Bill, you got anything else for us? 

[00:56:07] Bill Fletcher Jr.: No, that, that, uh, what, what Aaron said is, uh, that’s a good way to to, to tie the bow. Yeah. I think that there is a lot out there and that there are no excuses there. There’s no excuses for people to say, oh, I, I don’t know what to do. Particularly with the internet dam, it go on web, start looking around for these organizations, they’re represented on this [00:56:30] program and others, and we gotta rock and roll.

[00:56:32] There’s no time to mourn. We did that on Wednesday. 

[00:56:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I don’t know, Toby, do you have any, do you have any things that you would point folks to? 

[00:56:41] Tobita Chow: Um, I would second Aaron’s shout out to my former organization, People’s Action, which is doing this organizing revival, um, and trying to address this problem that we’ve been bringing up here, um, Uh, unions are a key organization but are very uneven in how much real organizing they do, so there are serious needs for agitation within [00:57:00] the labor movement, um, and so folks who are listening in the labor movement, like, maybe there’s a role for you to play there.

[00:57:06] Um, another, another section of the movement I think is worth lifting up is tenant unions. And there’s a lot of exciting tenant union organizing in different parts of the country that seems promising. 

[00:57:16] Cayden Mak: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been seeing a lot more of that and a lot of, a lot, a lot of people excited about that organizing.

[00:57:22] Um, and that is by needs to, like, super local, specific to municipalities and counties. Um, [00:57:30] great. Well, Toby, Bill, Kermit, Aaron, it has been great. It’s weird to say it’s been a pleasure, but it has been a pleasure talking with the four of you. Um, I really do hope that, uh, our conversation has felt orienting, um, to the folks who listen in on Convergence.

[00:57:46] And, uh, you know, I will also say, to Toby’s point, that a lot of the organizations that are doing a lot of hyperlocal work, whether that’s, uh, you know, smaller groups, Who are in specific places like [00:58:00] they have written for convergence, like get on our website and look at our vast archive to really like see what has been going down, um, in your community since 2008, we’ve got an archive of, of reflecting on organizing strategy and practice since 2008.

[00:58:14] So, um, there’s a lot there to uncover. Um, any last thoughts, folks? I don’t know if, uh, There’s anything that you want to leave our audience with. We’ll definitely link to a lot of the stuff that folks have mentioned in the show notes. So [00:58:30] if, uh, you know, hopefully this episode will turn into a great resource for you to share with folks in your life who are like, ah, where do I go?

[00:58:36] What do I do? Um, and folks, this is the time as everybody’s been saying to dig deep. Uh, we have a few months to prepare here and we need to start going on offense. It’s going to be tough. We’re going to take some L’s, um, but it’s time to find an organization to join. A group of friends and neighbors to create a safety pod to coordinate with.

[00:58:56] There’s a lot of the deportation defense stuff. Similarly, hyper local [00:59:00] work that’s going to require our ability to deploy quickly in specific contexts. There are these national base building organizations that have local chapters, there are local and regional organizations working on issues that matter.

[00:59:11] Organize your workplace. We have got to be able to think, strategize, and act. And we have to do it nimbly, humbly, and rigorously. I’m interested to hear also from our listeners after listening to this episode, uh, where are you? What have you done and what are you doing to get ready? What organizations are you [00:59:30] joining or recommitting to?

[00:59:31] Uh, please send me a personal note, uh, via email, written, or as a voice memo at mailbag at convergencemag. com. Um, we can run it either anonymously or with your name. It’s up to you. Um, but we’d really like to hear from our listeners, um, what it is that you’ve been up to. Uh, Thanks as always to our guests, uh, The four of you have been fantastic, uh, Toby, Bill, Kermit, Aaron, thank you for making the time to join us and digest, um, [01:00:00] what the hell just happened, um, and what we can, uh, prepare ourselves for in this next period.

[01:00:07] Thanks so much. This show is published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. I’m Caden Mock, and our producer is Josh Elstro. Editorial support this week provided by Marcy Ryan. If you’d like to support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment, you can become a member at convergencemag.

[01:00:27] com slash donate. Even a few [01:00:30] bucks a month goes a long way to making sure our independent small team can continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this helps.