All The Hottest Takes – Understanding the Post Election Blame Game

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build, a podcast from Convergence magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence, Caden Mock. On this show, we are building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the ascent of authoritarianism while building the influence of a genuinely progressive trend and the broad front that we need to win.

[00:00:27] Before we get started, I want to thank our new Movement Builder [00:00:30] level subscriber this week, Bob Wing. Convergence Magazine is an independent publication that relies on the generosity of our readers and listeners to create the rigorous and thoughtful takes that you’ve come to expect from us week in and week out.

[00:00:42] You can join Bob and become a subscriber at convergencemag. com slash donate. Any amount helps, either as a one time donation or a recurring monthly or annual subscription. This week on the show, I’m joined by political strategist Waleed Shaheed to discuss the lay of the land that is the many, many hot takes and finger pointing that’s been going on since [00:01:00] last week’s election, both inside and outside of the Democratic Party.

[00:01:03] He recently laid out a really helpful typology on his substack that we’ll discuss, and we’ll also talk about sort of what we need to sit with and digest, and also what we should just let roll off our backs. We’ll also assess how the uncommitted movement played out through this election season, and where we go next to continue the important work of fighting for Palestinian safety and liberation.

[00:01:23] Then I am joined by Executive Director of Future Currents, Connie Raza, to talk about scenario planning and research work that they’ve been [00:01:30] doing for the past year that can help us prepare in this treacherous moment. But first, some headlines. It’s Trans Awareness Week, so I want to make you aware of two things.

[00:01:39] One is that oral arguments in the Supreme Court case, U. S. v. Scarametti, which is the equal protection case about Tennessee’s blanket ban on trans healthcare for minors, will be heard on December 4th, just a few weeks away. The ACLU’s Chase Strangio will be arguing for the equal protection side, and the organization is calling for a rally at the Supreme Court [00:02:00] of trans people and our allies to show that trans people have popular support.

[00:02:04] Secondly, I’m trans. Now you’re aware. Literally every time in the past week they’ve announced a new proposal for a cabinet position, all I can think is, the Nightmare Blunt rotation continues. It’s a real rogues gallery of the biggest assholes and demagogues in American politics. And really, if you think about it, the whole point of this is to raise your blood pressure and make you feel like doom is coming.

[00:02:25] So don’t give them the satisfaction. When you see it, note it, and move on to what’s next. [00:02:30] All that said, some of this is the absolute most absurd shit I think I have ever seen. Like, for example, the QAnon guy publicly auditioning for Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency on Twitter. It does in fact make my brain hurt, but I’m trying not to think about it too much.

[00:02:45] Something I am also thinking a lot about is HR 9495. Maybe you heard about this. This is a proposed bill that would give the executive branch the ability to revoke the tax exempt status of any organization that they deem, quote, terrorist supporting. It [00:03:00] went to a floor vote this past week, and it failed to meet the two thirds threshold to pass the House.

[00:03:05] It did receive 256 yeas, 52 of which came from Democrats. It is likely to return to another vote. Uh, it is coming up through the House Committee on Rules for markup on Monday, and the way they’re going to represent it will only require 50 percent plus one margin, um, making it likely to pass the House on its second go.

[00:03:29] Many of our regular [00:03:30] listeners, I’m sure, are familiar with our first Q& A. guest, Waleed Shaheed. One of the co founders of the Uncommitted Movement, Waleed wrote the original memo that laid out the strategic framework for Listen to Michigan and other campaigns. Prior to that, he spent years with Justice Democrats, electing working class, progressive champions, and fighting for a Green New Deal.

[00:03:47] He’s also, I think, one of the most earnest and clear eyed strategists we have on the practical left. Uh, welcome to Block and Build, Waleed. 

[00:03:55] Waleed Shahid: Ernest and practical. So nice. 

[00:03:58] Cayden Mak: I, uh, you know, I, [00:04:00] I like to gas up my guests a little bit, but, uh, really like we, we have a deep appreciation for the, uh, deep strategic insight that you bring to bear to a lot of the work that we desperately need to do right now.

[00:04:12] Waleed Shahid: Um, thanks for having me on. 

[00:04:15] Cayden Mak: Of course, of course. Um, there’s, there’s obviously a lot to talk about here, but, uh, the place that I actually want to start is, um, the comments that you made to the New York City DSA Chapter Convention, um, which I found, like, I [00:04:30] mean, they just hit exactly right for me, certainly.

[00:04:32] Um, and, you know, the, the reality of the situation around the amount of power that we’ve built, but then also thinking about, you know, I don’t know, this, like, refreshing sort of self critique that I think that, like, we need to be doing more of, honestly, um, and I think that the, the feelings that you talked about this, the weight of the moment, um, and the weight of the weight of our failure as a movement.

[00:04:56] Um, I don’t know. It just, it just hit very deep for [00:05:00] me. Um, and. I think that it’s important for us to have a really sober assessment of the limits of the power that we have built. Um, could you lay out for our listeners a little bit of your argument and, and what you think our successes and failures as a movement thinking about Palestinian liberation in this period have been?

[00:05:20] Waleed Shahid: Yeah, part of, part of my, um, feeling of agitation to write, write that piece. I mean, when, when the DSA [00:05:30] asked me to speak, they didn’t really give me any, like, Real guidance on what to say or what not to say other than to comment on the moment and my thoughts about, um, uncommitted and the future of Palestinian human rights and how it relates to DSA.

[00:05:44] Um, I actually was rewatching clips from the film, um, how to survive a plague, which is a film about, um, act up. And there’s a scene, um, that you can find on YouTube of, uh, Larry Kramer, one of the, you know, um, [00:06:00] Probably the most like visible spokesperson for ACT UP. Um, he snaps at an internal meeting and talks about how, you know, they’re, they’re losing, ACT UP is not winning, how the movement is splintering, blaming each other, and he just is kind of fed up with like the infighting.

[00:06:18] And I don’t know, there was some, I wouldn’t, Larry Kramer seems like, you know, I, I, I like, on the one hand, he’s a hero. [00:06:30] On the other hand, I would hate to be in a meeting. Sure. Uh, so, but I don’t know, there was some sense of like, how do you make sense of a year of being unable to stop a genocide? And the closest thing I had to something in my like movement history is how to survive a plague.

[00:06:48] Um, and yeah, I think. What I wanted to share with the DSA was like, things I hear a lot as someone who’s in the kind of at a bridge between social movements and the [00:07:00] Democratic Party and mainstream media, like I hear a lot of criticism and feedback from people on the left and people in the like ecosystem of Democratic Party power.

[00:07:13] And, um, Those two spaces don’t talk to each other a lot. And so I wanted to reflect what I was hearing back from a lot of people, my own experiences of working on things like small moments campaign in 2020. And I’m committed. The main thing was that, um, [00:07:30] in some ways the movement has been successful in moving public opinion, I think so.

[00:07:35] Solidifying, um, uh, millennial and Gen Z, um, consciousness around Palestinian rights, like at a majority of millennials and Gen Z are firmly, I think, against unconditional weapons funding for Israel, are sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, are against war, um, but like, that’s not enough to have a major, like a solidified political majority in the country and like public [00:08:00] opinion also isn’t enough on this issue.

[00:08:02] Um, like this is an issue dominated by. Um, essentially like a right wing lobby, APAC and its affiliates, and they have like deep infrastructure, not just financially, but also in political space. And like, um, we, I think I’ve just been humbled by like not being able to move the needle in the democratic party of how deeply, uh, how [00:08:30] deep and like broad and strong that infrastructure is amongst donors, amongst voters.

[00:08:36] Like kind of institutions, institutions in the party. And I wanted to like let PSA members know that like mobilizing more mobilizing faster, making more incendiary statements is not going to be a path to power building. Um, it does come back to, uh, organizing some level and like building alliances across the democratic party ecosystem.

[00:08:58] Um, and that like, [00:09:00] you know, I saw, I saw a protest at Hakeem Jeffrey’s office in New York that had like 10 people at it. And I was like, what was that? What is the point of this? Like, it might be worth your time to, like, meet with some black churches or, um, Latino organizations in Hakeem’s district to, like, start to build, like, more of a community organizing approach rather than just, like, yelling at Hakeem Jeffries, which we’ve been doing for a while, and it hasn’t changed much.

[00:09:27] Cayden Mak: Yeah, yeah, and I think that advice is super well [00:09:30] taken that like, you know, what I, my big takeaway from what you shared is also just that like, there’s a critical error. In strategy and tactics, and that those things are not necessarily lining up in the face of people who have been like, you know, people like the folks at APAC who have been thinking about this in a very, like, long term and like, what is the word?

[00:09:56] Sort of like, like, strategically ruthless way. [00:10:00] Shrewd? Yeah, shrewd. Yeah, yeah. They know what they’re doing. They understand how power works in the Beltway. Um, they understand how power works to get people inside the Beltway. So, it seems, it seems like 

[00:10:15] Waleed Shahid: Yeah, and I have, I have these like anecdotes in the last like eight years of my like career of um, When Jamal Bowman ran for Congress, APEC sent a black outreach director to his district to organize black church [00:10:30] leaders to go talk to Jamal Bowman about what the black community’s issues are in the district, in which Israel was one of five issues they were going to talk about.

[00:10:38] And like, that’s, that’s organizing on some level, and like, I think, and, I’m not discounting the financial and donor power that APAC has, but there is another side of it, which is, um, there is like six significant institutional and communal backing for APAC that I think some people on the left are easy, um, don’t understand or don’t [00:11:00] know, or, um, you know, the, I think the predominant worry about APAC is the amount of power they’ll send to you, but they can mobilize community, like in district community leaders too.

[00:11:11] Um, and I think more people need to know that that’s. In terms of what the left can do, that’s a lot easier to do than getting a bunch of, like, rich people to donate to a ProPals. Totally. 

[00:11:21] Cayden Mak: Totally, and, and that represents an opportunity for us, right? That, like, there’s, there’s work to be done there. It’s actually interesting, I just read this piece in N Plus One, [00:11:30] um, this week about, um, Um, I think it was in their most recent issue about the sort of, like, um, thinking about the attack on trans rights and identifying a sort of similar thing about, like, what Moms for Liberty can do versus what the sort of, like, pro austerity, like, anti public education wing, like, Issue groups can do that, like, those folks have the money and then Moms for Liberty can, like, turn people out to, like, Board of [00:12:00] Education meetings and whatever.

[00:12:01] And that, like, identifying some of that connection, that it’s not just about money, that it is also about the right having organized people and, like, recognizing where they’re doing that actually seems, like, pretty critical to what our next steps are, um, across issue area on the left. 

[00:12:18] Waleed Shahid: Yeah, and I think, I think, like, for the average DSA, like, there was a lot of You know, I got a lot of support for what I said at DSA.

[00:12:26] I also received a lot of criticism. And, um, I think [00:12:30] like I can talk a lot about how APAC, what APAC donor networks are, how like they raise money from the owner of the New England Patriots, who like is one of the richest people in America, Robert Kraft and like, but for the average DSA member, there’s not that much you can do about it.

[00:12:47] But, but there is something you can do in your community. And so I wanted to try to be. You know, some people refer to what I wrote as Pollyannish, naive, and I do think, like, If we want to, if, like, there’s a version of it [00:13:00] that’s like, we can’t do anything because they just have so much more money than the other side, but I, I, I don’t think that that helps us with organizing approaches because then we just are going to do nothing and say it’s a money issue, um, or we’re going to do things that don’t make sense, like sending 10 people, not that DSA did this, but like sending 10 people to protest at a member of Congress’s office, which I don’t think is like, Kind of move the needle on this.

[00:13:24] Um, 

[00:13:25] Cayden Mak: yeah, yeah. And it, it is like at the end of the day, it’s like absolutely unacceptable to do nothing, [00:13:30] right? Like we need to be doing something and we need to also be looking at like what we can do differently and, and where there are levers that we can pull. Um, and 

[00:13:38] Waleed Shahid: I think in that setting, like people, people are expecting me to do 10 minutes, Dunkey on APAC and Dunkey on Chuck Schumer, but like, what’s the point?

[00:13:48] Cayden Mak: Right. It’s like, we already know, right? Yeah, totally. It’s like, we already know what the problem is. with the opposition. Well, I think the other thing that, um, I [00:14:00] wanted to talk about a little bit with you, not, not as like a blame game thing, but I think to this organizing question and, and I would say like gaps in our, in our community organizing are the ways that you were lifting up some of the ways the right was trying to demobilize or even mobilize Arab and Muslim communities, especially in Michigan for Trump.

[00:14:19] Right. Um, and I think that, you know, anecdotally, I’d also heard from folks that I know, I grew up in Michigan, so I’ve, uh, folks there, [00:14:30] um, that some of that messaging, unfortunately, seemed deeply resonant to a lot of people. Um, you know, I, I don’t want to, I definitely obviously don’t want to lay blame with individual voters for making the choices that they made, because, like, I think the problem is that, like, there was an organizing gap there that made that feel compelling to people.

[00:14:50] And, like, You know, some of this is a Democratic Party issue, um, but I’m interested to hear from you what you think [00:15:00] about, um, That messaging and, and the impact that it had now post election day, um, I think the, like, the texts, the text messages that you shared on your sub stack were, like, very chilling, to be honest, um, in terms of making, I mean, this is also part of this weird thing about making the case for Trump as a peace candidate, um, which I feel like has been popping up all over the place, um, which is, frankly, uh, baffling to me, but, you know, I guess you can say whatever you want.[00:15:30] 

[00:15:31] But yeah, I’m, I’m wondering what you’re thinking about that post election. 

[00:15:34] Waleed Shahid: So a couple of things, one, um, before October 7th, um, in Michigan, what I was told by several people in the Dearborn area is that the Michigan Republican party, um, was going into Arab and Muslim civic institutions and religious institutions and doing the Christopher Rufo playbook of getting people to be [00:16:00] scared of what liberals were doing at their schools.

[00:16:02] For those who don’t know, Christopher Rufo is, um, a conservative operative at the Heritage Foundation. He famously came up with, If people remember, the biggest, one of the biggest debates in the year 2004 was that we were teaching evolution in our schools as opposed to intelligent design. That’s Christopher Arufo.

[00:16:20] In 2012, Um, 21, um, it was critical race theory is being taught in our schools. And then in 2023, it became the, um, curriculum, [00:16:30] LGBTQ friendly curriculum in schools. I don’t like, like the great men, the great men of history theory, but Rufo is like, it’s like a good character, character study of like conservative operatives are building these campaigns and, um, deploying them.

[00:16:46] And so Michigan Republican party was going into Arab and Muslim communities. And, um, the critical race theory stuff wasn’t going to work on Arabs and Muslims, but the LGBT stuff was. And, um, [00:17:00] you know, they mobilized, uh, people to go to the school board, yell at the school board, people. about trans inclusive and, um, you know, queer inclusive curriculum.

[00:17:11] They protested and pressured the mayor on it. The mayor didn’t budge on removing the books. Um, and then October 7th happened. And so you had like a ripening of conditions of, um, people being, you know, organized into the Republican framework and away from the Democratic framework. And then you had like a deep, [00:17:30] uh, like the deepest sense of betrayal from the Democratic party ever experienced by this community.

[00:17:36] Um, this is a community that has consistently voted Democrat for a long time, um, since probably 2004 or 2002. Um, and a lot of UAW history in these communities. Um, and. Um, when October 7th happened, I think people were expecting more engagement from their Democratic representatives, but like, Governor Whitmer, Senator Peters, [00:18:00] like, didn’t Like, it took them months, if anything, to show up in the communities and even start to engage with people.

[00:18:07] Um, this is a community of, uh, the, probably the largest Lebanese American community in the country. Um, and many Palestinian Americans, um, people who’ve had loved ones killed by U. S. supplied bombs in Israel over the past year. Especially with the escalation in Lebanon, like, people are having funerals for, um, loved ones who live in Lebanon in, you know, in Dearborn and [00:18:30] Hamtramck.

[00:18:31] Um, and so, yeah, I think this is part of the story is that this is a community like. We’ve heard in the black community, Latino community, that like the Democratic party has taken these voters for granted, believing they would vote for Democrat solely based on scaring them about how dangerous Trump is and how racist Trump is.

[00:18:52] And so, um, what was left was a vacuum that was filled by Republican culture, war nonsense, and then, [00:19:00] um, a deep, deep, deep, A deep betrayal of feeling seen, feeling recognized, being seen as equally human by the party, and then like a series of, um, yeah, failures by the, like, Trump, Trump visited Dearborn and Hamtramck multiple times in person, um, talked about how he was going to end the wars and bring peace to the Middle East, criticized Harris, for being a warmonger and standing with Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney.

[00:19:26] And Harris didn’t visit Dearborn once in this past year. And [00:19:30] so part of the uncommitted campaign was like warning that this was going to happen back in February. Like we were like, Hey, we want, also want to defeat Trump and you are already losing a lot of people. Please, like, we’re, we’re trying to make you take this as seriously as possible.

[00:19:48] And, like, I think many, many, many more people would have voted Republican or Jill Stein or not voted at all if it wasn’t for the Uncommitted campaign, but yeah, I think it’s one of those, it’s one of [00:20:00] those things where, like, there was a vacuum of leadership and it was filled by a far right authoritarian who was promising you Um Lies, and like preying on your despair, and, um, I feel sad mostly for the communities that were lied to, and like now you see with the cabinet appointments, like, he is appointing the most anti Palestinian people in the United States.

[00:20:23] Cayden Mak: Yeah, I, I think that the, like, it is, I don’t know. It is just [00:20:30] really, it’s just really fucking sad that, like, and, and it’s not a lesson that we needed to learn in this, right? That, like, when there’s, when there are gaps in our organizing and our landscape, like, as the broad left, I’m not even saying that this is, like, on our movements, but this is on, like, you know, the, the much broader front that is, like, hey, a Trump presidency is not going to be good news for most people, um, that, like, [00:21:00] they’re just, you know, so many, so many opportunities to intervene on this that would have really not taken much, it seems.

[00:21:08] Waleed Shahid: No, the, the uncommitted movement, like the asks we’ve made, besides an arms embargo, there were other asks we made along the way that we thought could help the campaign in its effort to defeat Trump. Having a speaker at the DNC who was Palestinian, making a statement about what Harris would do differently on Palestine as Uh, compared to Trump, um, [00:21:30] what, uh, like a statement saying Harris, uh, intended to uphold domestic international law as it pertained to the use of weapons abroad, meeting with families either publicly or privately in Michigan who’ve been impacted by Israel’s bombings.

[00:21:43] Like there were so many things just to make people feel seen and like Trump made people feel seen. Like he showed up, he listened to them. Um, he told them. Uh, what they wanted to hear. Um, and it wasn’t that hard. It didn’t need to be that [00:22:00] hard. 

[00:22:01] Cayden Mak: Yeah. And didn’t, didn’t need to be like, even. Like, hugely, necessarily effortful on the campaign’s part, it seems like.

[00:22:08] Um, well, I mean, this, this also in some ways is like, maybe a good segue to talking about this sub stack post that you did, I think, earlier this week, that was sort of this typology of responses to the election, um, that I found really helpful because it was also like, here’s an emblematic commentator who’s like, saying this thing, um, I’ve been sending it around to a lot of people who are like, [00:22:30] Trying to make sense of the sort of like commentary.

[00:22:34] Um, and I’m wondering, like having written that, and also thinking about these, um, these organizing gaps, uh, by your let’s, what do you think are the most useful threads of commentary that you’ve seen? Um, that you really want to lift up for movement folks to chew on further and think about as we, as we, Build strategy going forward.

[00:22:56] Waleed Shahid: So one of the biggest threads that I think is, um, [00:23:00] a useful conversation amongst the left, um, is the question around Bidenomics. Um, there’s a deep, there’s a deep debate happening, um, in the Democratic party on Twitter and Substack on TV about, um, was, uh, was there anything Joe Biden could have done, um, or Kamala Harris could have said to actually get people.

[00:23:25] To be convinced that they were going to solve inflation and the cost of living crisis, [00:23:30] um, Biden, like. There’s basically a debate happening that Biden, um, did, actually did do a lot on the economy and talked a lot about the economy and talked a lot about inflation, um, and Harris, most of her campaign ads were about price gouging and inflation, um, Biden spent more money than any Democratic president has since LBJ, um, and, um, I think there are people who feel like, um, one, he [00:24:00] either overspent money, Two, uh, and that caused more inflation to happen that would have happened, that wouldn’t have happened otherwise.

[00:24:07] Two, um, that he didn’t communicate the wins or the wins weren’t, the wins weren’t going to be visible until 2025 or 2026 about what he actually was doing on the economy. Three, some of the things like the child tax credit expired. Right. And like some of the COVID policies didn’t hold over. And then four, it’s like a, it’s like a.

[00:24:29] [00:24:30] Um, the, the policies weren’t big enough or tangible enough for people to feel like this addressed issues like groceries or rent or health care in a tangible way. My anecdotal experience of like working class people in my life and like non college voters in my life is they cannot name one thing that Biden and Harris did in the past four years to help with the cost of living.

[00:24:54] Um, and I like, Um, so it’s frustrating to me to have this like intellectual debate about economic [00:25:00] policy, what Biden did or what Biden didn’t do. Like he did spend billions of dollars on clean energy and on COVID recovery, but it’s 2024 and people aren’t like, um, there aren’t quick answers to these, uh, to these questions.

[00:25:13] And like, I’ve talked to so many people who have been like, yeah, what did, what did they, what have they done? I don’t, um, And I hear from a lot of people in Democratic Party and progressive economic world, like, they’re starting to list all the things that Harris said she was going to do, or Biden was going to do, but it, it [00:25:30] really did not trickle down to voters.

[00:25:31] Um, and so I think that’s one piece of the debate that is like. Interesting on like the substantive policy level and the communications level is like what, what happened on the economy and what happened in the last four years of Biden? Um, because, and then this leads to my second point, which is if voters don’t feel like you are addressing their number one issue, which is the economy, um, and, uh, you have not like, [00:26:00] um, Chris Hayes refers to this as the war on attention.

[00:26:02] A lot of people have referred to this concept as like, we live in an attention economy, like Uh, we did not win the war of attention on the, on the eco, on, on the economy or on other, any issue Democrats this time around. Yeah. And so if you’re not gonna win the war of attention, then like bullshit is gonna fill the vacuum and empty promises of change.

[00:26:22] And so what filled the vacuum? The border, asylum seekers, um, Trans people. The millions of trans [00:26:30] people who want to play sports, um, around the country. The number one issue. God forbid, you know? The hundreds of millions of trans Americans, um, who, uh, who want to play volleyball. And, um, And yeah, and like, then like Trump’s kind of nonsense around how he’ll change, like, just the change stuff.

[00:26:50] Um, and I think this is also, the second conversation I think is really important is around this question of economics versus culture war. And I’ve been [00:27:00] frustrated. I mean, it’s a similar, we, like, I feel extremely nauseated by how similar this feels to 2016, 2017. I’m like, I have had these arguments and debates already once before, and we’re doing it again.

[00:27:14] Um, but. Like, one of the things I tried to write in the substack is like, like, we are, as a country, going through societal changes on family, on gender, on sexuality, on race, on migration, [00:27:30] on climate change. Like, there are changes happening in our society, and voters aren’t dumb, and Democrats are like, they have two, they have kind of a couple ways of going about these cultural changes happening in our country, which is, one, they’re trying to distract you, don’t worry about that.

[00:27:49] Yeah, like, these cultural changes are bad. I agree. Or, or three, like, you know, the kind of liberal elite version, which is, like, you’re dumb if you don’t know what they them [00:28:00] pronouns are, if you don’t know how to use them. So, is, like, to me, I haven’t seen much commentary or analysis about, like, huh, like, we’re gonna, it seems like queer, queer Americans and and Um, immigrants are not going to go away anytime soon.

[00:28:19] And so like, how, how can we get better about inoculating for what is going to always happen with right wing politics or fascist politics, which is to go after minorities and [00:28:30] marginalized communities and like make you feel like, um, they’re destroying your country and your like way of life. Um, and so, I don’t know, I’m, uh, I, I think, I don’t know.

[00:28:41] I think a lot of Democrats are burying their heads in the sand that they can continue to just like, I don’t know. My, my mom is someone who is like pretty like conservative culturally on a lot of these issues. And the only people that she hears from about transgender Americans are the right, is the right way.

[00:28:58] And like maybe a little [00:29:00] bit on from like Hollywood, but like she doesn’t hear that much from, it’s not like Democrats campaign on that stuff. They like leave the field open. So that’s kind of, I see my mom is like, All I hear is that there’s they’re teaching kids about this in schools, and I think that’s weird 

[00:29:13] Cayden Mak: right and and I think that the So I feel it I feel this way about the the like especially the the sort of conjunction of of the climate and migration conversations to that like the the people who are like [00:29:30] finding a way to talk about How climate is changing and also may drive migration is something that, like, I don’t think anybody has actually solved for outside of a sort of, like, more academic, intellectual, like, we have an analysis of this that, like, drives what we think should happen, but we don’t have a way of communicating about it to, like, regular ass people to be, like, This is, this is what is happening in the world, um, and that’s really [00:30:00] troubling.

[00:30:00] Waleed Shahid: It’s not, it’s naive to think this is like, this is going to stay with us for the next, our whole lives. Yeah, forever, actually. Yeah, and like, I don’t know, I’m like, I, I went through some of the takes after 2004 when John Kerry lost to George W. Bush and, and Dianne Feinstein of San Francisco, California said that legalizing same sex marriage in San Francisco helped the Republicans beat John Kerry because it scared, um, the middle voter.

[00:30:28] And so I’m like, yeah, [00:30:30] we’ve been here before. Yeah. This isn’t that different from like every conversation we’ve had as a country around like, you know, um, dismantling some hierarchies of oppression that probably shouldn’t exist. Like there’s always going to be like, oh, maybe we, we move too fast on that.

[00:30:45] And I’m like, yeah, the problem isn’t we move too fast. The problem is we’re moving. And like, And so how do we deal with the moving that’s happening? 

[00:30:54] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. And how do we make the moving make sense to people? 

[00:30:57] Waleed Shahid: Totally. I mean, I had a [00:31:00] conversation with, um, a friend of mine who is involved in like, um, the LGBT rights stuff.

[00:31:07] And she, she was like, they’re In philanthropy, there’s, like, not very much interest in, like, raising the salien And this is true of not just trans rights, but also migration. Like, there is not interest in raising the salience of these issues in the national conversation for fear of electoral and political backlash.

[00:31:28] And, like, that is what we witnessed [00:31:30] this past year. election was like a deep fear of trying to make a persuasive case or even like humanize or contextualize migrants and trans Americans on a national level so that people could understand what the fuck is happening and why Republicans are trying to exploit this issue.

[00:31:45] Like, I think we really just left, we left a vacuum that was filled by the far right. 

[00:31:51] Cayden Mak: And it’s, it’s actually a vacuum that the far right is like specifically designed to be able to fill, right? That like, this is the Steve Bannon flood the zone [00:32:00] with shit thing, right? That like, they don’t even care if what they’re saying is true or accurate or a reflection of something that exists.

[00:32:06] Like, they just have to say something. They know they have to say something. Um, and that can be demobilizing and demoralizing. 

[00:32:13] Waleed Shahid: How does your shit dominate the conversation? 

[00:32:16] Cayden Mak: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:32:16] Waleed Shahid: That’s like, um, and so I don’t know, I’m like Um, so the economy, this kind of culture war economics thing, and then, like, the third piece is democracy.

[00:32:26] Like, Democrats did, again, try to run a [00:32:30] campaign about democracy, and we live in a country where Joe Manchin has shown us for the past four years that like, democracy doesn’t, like, it’s not a democracy, and like, nobody buys that, um, and if people don’t feel like the democracy is working for them, and they would rather take a chance on an authoritarian strong man who is saying that I will fix things and I’ll like get rid of the gridlock and I’ll end the wars.

[00:32:57] I’ll bring peace to Ukraine. I’ll bring peace to the middle east. Like, [00:33:00] just trust me, I’ll do it. And like, you know, we need, if, if, if Democrats are going to be the. Party of democracy like you can’t sell them. It’s like you can’t sell democracy You have to sell the like I’m not Shanker Osorio says this thing.

[00:33:14] Like you can’t sell the recipe you have to sell the cake And like democracy like we need what is what does democracy do for people is it working is it is it delivering things like there’s like a Spanish leftist who has a quote [00:33:30] where like the the central point premise of democracy is a challenge to feudalism, which is, uh, we should take the power and money that the feudal lords have and spread it with everybody else.

[00:33:42] Like that’s what democracy is supposed to be. And I don’t think that’s what, that’s not the system we have today. And so, um, and so, yeah, I just, we, we did not, we did not show that democracy deserved to be the selling [00:34:00] point of this candidate. Um, This time around, and I’m like, I’m, and it’s partly not just the fault of Democrats.

[00:34:07] Like we have a fucked up system in which it’s really hard to get things done in Congress. Um, and so, but it’s like another one of these things that will last with us for a while is just, um, how do we, um, in a context where, where our Congress is gridlocked almost all the time. Like, how do we have a vision that doesn’t.[00:34:30] 

[00:34:30] lead itself to be easy fodder for the authoritarian right to be like, yeah, this stuff doesn’t work. 

[00:34:35] Cayden Mak: Totally. Well, it’s also, I mean, the, this thing that you’re saying about making the case for democracy not working, like, I, like, resonates deeply also when you think about, like, the, uh, the, like, ballot initiative landscape this year, um, but also as a Californian thinking about the ballot initiative landscape here and how, like, That process is [00:35:00] already being sort of bought off in the, like, through the extreme wealth inequality that we have in this state, right?

[00:35:06] That, like, basically Silicon Valley money is, like, able to pay for ballot initiatives to pass or fail. Um, and so, like, I think the outlook feels really dire on making democracy make sense to people. And so, like, I think that there’s a, there’s an interesting opportunity that we have to. Maybe say something positive and visionary about how we [00:35:30] would like democracy to work in this moment that, um, I’m not seeing a lot of and I would like to see more of.

[00:35:36] Waleed Shahid: Yeah. Um, yeah, that all makes sense. Um, I think if there’s one hot take, The hottest take, the best take is that Kamala Harris was asked multiple times, how will you be different from Joe Biden? And she said, I won’t. And so if there’s anything to blame for the election, it’s clearly the woke mob that made her say that multiple times.

[00:35:58] Cayden Mak: And also like, what, what a [00:36:00] leading question, right? Like, we’re 

[00:36:02] Waleed Shahid: asking you how I know, but like, Kaden, she could have said, she could have said, a million things. She could have said, I’ll have, I’ll have a cat instead of a dog. I’ll, uh, I’ll prioritize childcare in my first hundred days. My first executive to order will be X, Y, Z.

[00:36:18] Like, yeah, it could have been 

[00:36:19] Cayden Mak: anything really. 

[00:36:20] Waleed Shahid: It could have been anything except nothing, except what she said, which was, which was literally like, I’m not, I’m not even saying she needed to say [00:36:30] like, I’ll do Medicare for all our free Palestine. She could have, she just needed to say anything, 

[00:36:34] Cayden Mak: anything. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Like bring the child, that child tax credit back. I think people would have gone nuts for that. The bar was very low. The bar was in hell. Uh, is there anything else? How did we lose to these people? Bro, I just, it’s Like I said, the bar is in hell. Um, Uh, Malid, I do really appreciate your insight, I appreciate all your work, um, [00:37:00] thank you so much for making the time to chat, um, It’s, uh, it’s a rough time.

[00:37:06] It’s a dark time. Um, what, is there anything, is there anything that you are looking forward to? I mean, that’s a good question. Is there stuff that’s like on your radar that you’re like, okay, here’s a bright spot.

[00:37:19] Waleed Shahid: There’s a lot of good music that came out in the first Trump term. Um, so, um, the bright spot, what [00:37:30] bright spots are there? I don’t know. I. We This isn’t a bright spot, but this is like a A horizon that I think will be interesting is, um, we are entering a political era in the Democratic Party where Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, or the Clintons, are not going to be the dominant factor in the future of the Democratic Party debate.

[00:37:58] Like, Biden was Obama’s vice [00:38:00] president, Hillary Clinton was in Obama’s administration, Bill Clinton, and like, I love Bernie Sanders, but he’s getting old. And so like, what does the future of the party and the future of the progressive wing look like in this completely new era where I don’t think, I don’t think it’ll look like 2016 to 2020 where it was like, kind of the Bernie and AOC like show.

[00:38:24] Um, I think it’ll, you know, obviously AOC is still a major figure and the squad’s a major figure, but like, [00:38:30] I, this era, they will be so progressive. It’s hard to predict what will happen. And like, nobody could, nobody could predict that Barack Obama was going to emerge from the Kerry loss to become the Democratic party nominee in 2008.

[00:38:44] Like all the takes in 2004, what that was that the party was seen as weak on terrorism, weak amongst Christian men and like too close to same sex marriage. And Obama was like a liberal critic of the Iraq war left of Hillary Clinton and a black man [00:39:00] whose middle name was Hussein. we don’t, like four years from now, like it could go any direction.

[00:39:06] Um, but I do think it’s like, you know, have we prepared the infrastructure and organizing forces to like, um, wage this next phase of battle? Because there is, as people know, there is a backlash to the left on economics, on culture, on race, like much more than there was in 2016 after Hillary lost. Like, um, so there.

[00:39:29] It’s, [00:39:30] it, we are on the big kid stage. And, um, yeah, that’s the, that’s the next four years. 

[00:39:37] Cayden Mak: Totally. Yeah, no, I think you’re right. The, the party is terrain of struggle frame is going to be interesting for all of us in this next period. So, 

[00:39:46] Waleed Shahid: Rahm Emanuel, DNC chair. I don’t know if you saw that. I 

[00:39:50] Cayden Mak: did not 

[00:39:50] Waleed Shahid: see that.

[00:39:51] Oh, yeah. Oh, 

[00:39:52] Cayden Mak: boy. 

[00:39:53] Waleed Shahid: Three sources close to Rahm Emanuel say he’s considering a run for DNC chair. 

[00:39:58] Cayden Mak: All right.[00:40:00] 

[00:40:02] Well, uh, you know, it’s one thing I will say is it’s not going to be boring. 

[00:40:09] Waleed Shahid: Good for the CNN executives. Oh, God. 

[00:40:12] Cayden Mak: Um, uh, we’ll eat. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much for making the time and we’ll talk to you soon. I’m sure 

[00:40:20] Waleed Shahid: be a long four years I’ll be here. 

[00:40:22] Cayden Mak: All right, take it easy, man uh Well, people obviously right now are working through some really [00:40:30] complicated feelings about last week’s election results and what it means for the future.

[00:40:33] Um, there’s other folks who’ve been planning for this outcome, um, and also how we as individuals and movement organizations can respond. We have some resources up. At convergencemag. com, including this great piece from Daniel Hunter that maybe you’ve seen making the rounds, 10 ways to be prepared and grounded now that Trump has won.

[00:40:50] Um, and my next guest has also been exploring this scenario with a broad range of organizations. Her group’s called Future Currents, and they have a new report out called Getting Ready and Staying [00:41:00] Ready, lessons from the 2025 and 2026 scenario exercises, which summarize nearly a year of scenario planning with folks across the country, different movement organizations.

[00:41:09] At different, uh, is a group that builds with scales and is really great resource to support research, scenario, planning, and strategy design. Connie Raza, executive director of future occurrence joins me today to talk about the scenario planning and research work that they have done to support preparedness in this treacherous time.

[00:41:27] Um, thank you so much for making the time to [00:41:30] talk, 

[00:41:30] Connie Razza: Connie. Thank you for having me here. 

[00:41:32] Cayden Mak: Awesome. Uh, well, to start out, I love a little methodology talk. Um, so I’m really curious about how your team approached the long process of scenario planning that’s reflected in the top lines of your most recent pre election report.

[00:41:46] Um, how do you all approach this work and what’s the experience that’s kind of informed this approach? 

[00:41:52] Connie Razza: Awesome. Thank you. So. Um, we also are kind of methodology nerds, and, um, one of [00:42:00] the key pieces that we’re interested in is how do we, uh, help folks hold a longer time horizon than they ordinarily do and can in their day to day work without imagining that we are accurately predicting the future.

[00:42:17] Cayden Mak: So 

[00:42:18] Connie Razza: what we really spent a lot of time with was, what are the signals, trends, the facts of life today that give us some [00:42:30] inkling of where we might be headed? What are people saying, but also what are they doing? What is policy currently leading us to and what are some of the shifts that we could imagine in different outcomes?

[00:42:44] Then really, we wanted to think about how do we tee up a tool for movement organizations and leaders to be able to be as, um, prepared and nimble to [00:43:00] meet the future conditions, um, as possible, which conditions did we need to, uh, focus on, and that helped us really hone in on what are the trajectories that we were looking at.

[00:43:14] And then, uh, develop kind of for this, this particular scenario, we really wanted to develop pretty immersive scenarios for what the life in 2026 [00:43:30] would look like in different election outcomes, so that we could then work backward to what did it look like in 25? How did the election go in the immediate post election in order to be able to, um, Really dig in on that question of What do we need to be prepared to do?

[00:43:50] What work are we doing now that we need to amp up? What do we need to pull back on? What do we need to add in? Who do we need to be in [00:44:00] relationship to in order to be ready to meet the range of conditions that we might be facing? 

[00:44:06] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that seems really powerful. And I think that like, you know, a lot of the scenario planning that, um, I’ve seen recently, and I’ve been a part of recently has been useful for this sort of immediate period, but taking that longer time horizon, I think can be very challenging.

[00:44:23] And it’s especially challenging now, as we’re sort of facing down the situation that we see right [00:44:30] now. Um, I’m interested in, um, I guess, like, knowing that, like, you know, are, how, like, how game are folks to work through those longer time horizons? And like, do you, you know, how, like, are people ready to kind of take that stance?

[00:44:50] And like, what kind of, what kind of preparation is necessary to get people there? 

[00:44:55] Connie Razza: Totally. Um, I think that it might make sense for [00:45:00] me to give a little bit of background on future currents, because I think that it actually answers this question of how prepared people were, um, to, to look forward, even as they were actually getting ready for the election and their work of that period and dealing with all of the ups and downs of the months leading up to today.

[00:45:22] Um, so, uh, future currents really grew out of some. [00:45:30] Responses to 2016, um, that election when folks had planned for one outcome and not for another, and then found themselves in a really radically different. future, um, that they weren’t prepared for. And, um, a set of organizations came together and were like, we need scenario planning as a real muscle that we can exercise and really piloted what would become future [00:46:00] currents.

[00:46:00] And so through the work with those organizations for the midterms in 2018 for the census and the elections in 2020. Um, the broad, we became sort of like a broader movement utility. Um, and we’ve been doing scenario planning that whole time. So one of the things that we found was that there was much greater appetite.

[00:46:28] For scenario [00:46:30] planning heading into this election, then we were even expecting and part of that is because it’s been really socialized. I think throughout the movement ecosystem, I would even say, like, in addition to the work that we did, there was scenario planning that others did with their organizations.

[00:46:49] That, um, meant that our field has been really robustly prepared in a range of ways and different modalities, even a [00:47:00] scenario planning. So ours was very immersive. There are some that are much more like, um, um, like tabletop exercises that are more kind of like quick scenarios that you really grapple with in groups.

[00:47:14] Some are like role playing games and that kind of thing. Um, but that really helped to, um, get different, uh, almost like mini ecosystems, um, like prepared for what was to come. So that was, [00:47:30] I think that the other piece that was really heartening is that we were really aiming at looking beyond the election as opposed to preparing for the election itself.

[00:47:41] Um, and there was a great appetite for being ready for whatever the conditions of government were going to be on the other side. Um, and like, frankly, I think that we need even more of that. In the condition that we find ourselves in, Trump has been [00:48:00] elected. Every branch of federal government is in the control of, um, folks who would abuse their power over.

[00:48:12] And, um, don’t really have any interest in power with, and so, uh, very 

[00:48:18] Cayden Mak: diplomatic way of describing it. Yes.

[00:48:23] Connie Razza: Um, and so I, I think that there, and it has been so [00:48:30] heartening to see the preparation to dig into how we resist the kinds of, um, abuses of power that they’re going to attempt. And, um, I believe that we also need to keep our eyes on our prize, 

[00:48:49] Cayden Mak: keep our 

[00:48:50] Connie Razza: eyes looking forward and anchor to the just and joyful world that we all are working for.

[00:48:57] Um, and [00:49:00] guide our sort of our, our path through this treacherous terrain, um, to that. Um, and so how we hold both of those timelines and both of those kind of dispositions, I mean, it is in your name, Black and Bilge. 

[00:49:20] Cayden Mak: Right. 

[00:49:22] Connie Razza: And I just think it’s like critical right now. 

[00:49:25] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s quite right.

[00:49:28] And I’m, I’m, I am [00:49:30] also very reassured by the like level of hunger people have for these conversations. And I think that also like some of the conversations that we were having on this show pre election also kind of bear that out around people’s analysis around the sort of like. Danger is actually presented by, um, the tack to the right that is happening across party lines.

[00:49:55] Yes. That like, whether that’s backlash against the pro Palestine movement or [00:50:00] whatever, or like the backlash against like rights for trans people, that like that is a bipartisan Consensus, apparently, um, that is not shared by actually a huge number of people in the country. And so knowing what, knowing that is like, like knowing that we were not, are not going to necessarily have friends in high places in either case, seems like it really has been a big piece of the puzzle here.

[00:50:27] Um, I would guess. 

[00:50:29] Connie Razza: Yeah. I mean, [00:50:30] I would not have wanted to Us to find ourselves in the condition that we’re in right now. No. Um, and, uh, one thing that has occurred to me is that there has been, um, a lot of trying to figure out how to preserve some of what we have and kind of tack our way to the goal that we have of a radically inclusive, robust and reparative democracy.

[00:50:59] And, [00:51:00] um, with. Kind of like, uh, power structure that is clearly in power and clearly opposed to democracy. Like, I think that it opens up our creativity about how we accomplish the beautiful democracy that we mean to build. Um, and how we show up for one another and, um, [00:51:30] approach with open arms. As well as sort of like the, the strong defense that we need, um, feels to me like, and, Opportunity.

[00:51:44] Cayden Mak: Yeah, well, I mean, this this also makes me think a lot about something that I feel like I’ve learned a lot about this year around scenario planning and that I think is often overlooked is the emotional part of scenario planning. [00:52:00] A lot of people, probably everybody listening to this podcast and you know, certainly on, uh, certainly for myself that a lot of us are sitting in some very unpleasant feelings right now.

[00:52:10] Um, and you know, a lot does remain uncertain that like, you know, if our experience bears anything out is that. There’s a lot that we are still learning about what things are going to look like. And it’s also not clear how certain parts of the ecosystem are going to respond to conditions. Um, [00:52:30] and that search is just going to continue for months to come.

[00:52:32] Um, what can you tell us about what you learned about cultivating emotional resilience and preparedness, um, through this process that that gave rise to this report? 

[00:52:44] Connie Razza: Yeah, I really appreciate that question. I think through the scenario planning that we did this year, as well as in 2020 and 22, we really learned to foreground [00:53:00] the kind of emotional inoculation of scenario planning.

[00:53:04] Um, and it has borne fruit. I mean, I will say that for myself, having been the person who was sort of presenting the Trump scenario for months, um, on Wednesday of last week, when we got the, was the final results that Trump had won and the indication that he was winning the popular vote as [00:53:30] well. Um, I found that I was already in a kind of like, okay, well, the work begins, let’s go, you know, kind of stance.

[00:53:42] Um, which isn’t to say that I wasn’t also sort of like processing like deep anxiety, worry, disappointment, um, anger, sadness. At the same time, but like, I also had, was [00:54:00] familiar with this outcome and was thinking about, okay, so what does this mean? Like, how do we move forward? And I think it’s, it is not that it completely obliterates the emotions of the moment, but it does allow for a resilience is a great word, uh, uh, like Being able to move in the face, even as we’re holding those emotions.

[00:54:29] Cayden Mak: Yeah. [00:54:30] Yeah. I think I, I, I think similarly that like, I’ve, you know, been gaming out things by myself. We’ve been talking about them a little internally as an organization. Um, and that similarly, it’s, it’s not that I didn’t have those dreadful feelings and especially like, I went to a gathering on, uh, election night with like a bunch of other movement people and listless pretty early on.

[00:54:57] Um, and it’s not that I didn’t feel those things, but I think that [00:55:00] like, My own, I can, I, I also feel like I can see my way through some of the fog, um, in a different way because of that, which feels really important. Yeah, 

[00:55:13] Connie Razza: totally. You know, as you’re saying that, I mean, it’s making me think of, um, Orson Welles War of the Worlds.

[00:55:21] You know what I mean? Like, is there, as we’re sort of heading into the future, I just do wonder if there’s like a way [00:55:30] of, you know, Um, like a kind of mass inoculation or something that isn’t setting people up for feeling of the inevitability of it because the point of scenario planning is we are facing some conditions that are outside of our control and how do we take action in the face of them and that’s the piece is that it’s like, not just sort of like familiarity with it, but being on the front foot a little bit more, Um, in the [00:56:00] face of these conditions that are pretty harsh.

[00:56:04] Cayden Mak: Yeah, I, I think that that, um, one of the things that I’ve been thinking about in terms of like, you know, in addition to my sort of like work here, hosting the show, running the magazine, I do plenty of listening in my own, like, like small listening in my personal social networks about like, what are people talking about?

[00:56:25] Where, how are people feeling? And like, one of the things that I. Do already [00:56:30] see from, I think, people in my network who might identify more as liberal as opposed to like movement people is the sort of that sort of like creeping sense of inevitability of certain things that I think is really demobilizing.

[00:56:43] Um, and. Yeah, I think, well, in some ways, this is a good segue to my next question, which is about lifting up some of the insights that you all gleaned on the build front, um, in the current scenario that we’re in. Um, I think it’s really important [00:57:00] and, and probably like a helpful thing for a lot of people to hear.

[00:57:04] Um, and there are two things that I’ll highlight. I’m, I’m. Curious for you to unpack, or if there’s other things you want to highlight too, one is the building that can happen between movement groups and formations. So deepening the bonds of trust and collaboration. And not only is there an urgent need for that right in this moment where we need to keep each other safe, that there is strength in numbers, especially when you think about, you know, what happened around the Muslim man and the airport [00:57:30] mobilizations.

[00:57:31] Um, yeah. Uh, in 2017 and like what that look or what that looked like for people. Um, and then the other piece is about local and regional opportunities to, uh, what the report describes as leapfrog forward. Um, and how to be ready for those opportunities. You know, the, um, I live in Oakland and, um, you know, the city attorney of San Francisco has already come out to say this.

[00:57:55] And Rob Bonta, the attorney general of California has already Come out and said, like, we’re [00:58:00] ready to fight, like, we’re, we’re, we’re ready to throw down using the tools that are available to us. And, um, often those kinds of folks are. The opponents of some of our work as movements, but in this moment, we may be part of a broader front together.

[00:58:16] Um, and, uh, there may be some willingness at the state level in some places, and even in the county and municipal level in some places to fight the good fight right now. Um, and how can we, how can [00:58:30] we be ready for those kinds of scenarios and seize those opportunities when they present themselves? Um, yeah, so I’m curious if you could unpack.

[00:58:38] Uh, some of the insights around those two things and also if there are other things on the sort of like build front that you think people might be excited to hear about. 

[00:58:47] Connie Razza: Totally. Um, so I do think that there is, uh, like, harsh conditions are, um, fertile conditions [00:59:00] for building coalition and solidarity. And a couple of things that I would say about it.

[00:59:07] One, I feel like we, um, sometimes get seduced by the possibility that we can win our thing and, um, sort of break ranks in order to try and go after that thing. And whether that’s like, I think that it is maybe likely that [00:59:30] it won’t be with this administration. But it. Even if there’s a possibility of winning in, you know, 2028, for instance, um, a more affirming governing scenario, um, It’s actually critical for us to remember what we are learning right now that we have learned already before, which is that the march of [01:00:00] authoritarianism is a long march.

[01:00:03] It is not only when there is a clear pro authoritarian force in place, Um, it is also in between and we have to hold together. And so practicing now what comes more easily in the face of such harsh conditions, um, we also need to keep the long view and hold [01:00:30] together. Um, even when there are opportunities for us to advance some pieces.

[01:00:35] And I think that part of that is, um, like being strategic about. It might not be my fight is the one that’s up, but if we are helping people to see how our worldview of taking care of one another, of providing for communities, of putting people [01:01:00] and communities first, if we’re able to show people in action, our vision, that is a win.

[01:01:10] And that can be through like, Legislation, I mean, in the future, but it also is how we act together now. So, um, so that holding that practice today for the long view feels to me really important. The second is, [01:01:30] um, and this maybe is like skewing away from the build, but I actually don’t think it is, is we have to protect each other.

[01:01:39] Um, we are going to be under attack. And the way that the attack is going to come is going to be bit by bit. It’s not going to be all of us all at once, but when our Palestinian Muslim Arab brothers and sisters are under [01:02:00] attack, when our anti war pro Palestinian activist friends are under attack, we have to stand up for them.

[01:02:11] We have to stand up for them, and we have to do it when the mass deportations begin in whatever way they begin. We have to stand up with our immigrant brothers and sisters and the people who [01:02:30] are being profiled, um, in an expansive way. And it means that our organizations have to do it. We as individuals have to do it and philanthropy has to do it.

[01:02:44] Um, we have to have a hard line that says that talking about democracy is still C3 activity, but we’re allowed to do it, 

[01:02:55] Cayden Mak: you know? And 

[01:02:56] Connie Razza: so like being clear about that, it [01:03:00] is a black move, but it’s also a build move. And so it also means that when, um, we see that the folks who think that they are going to get provided for by an administration that doesn’t care about working and poor people, that we also have to stand up for them and invite them in to our worldview, we take care [01:03:30] of each other.

[01:03:31] So that’s, The build part. Um, the leapfrogging question is so exciting to me and I’m going to start in a place that is different from what you, where you want me to start. I’m going to start with the states that have authoritarian governments already. And I’m going to start there because they have shown us what it looks like to build power in a hostile environment and to actually win some [01:04:00] stuff.

[01:04:01] Um, even in the face of authoritarianism to move people to bring people together to be able to actually make advances and build power. And so I think that those of us who don’t live in authoritarian states have a ton to learn from them. And, um, we need to make sure that they continue to have the resources that they need.

[01:04:28] And that we are working [01:04:30] all together in that way. And then there are opportunities in states, um, that have progressive governments that want to demonstrate they do not stand with or for authoritarian overreach, that they are for the principles of democracy that say, We are here to take care of one another, to make [01:05:00] decisions together, to respect one another.

[01:05:03] And in a hostile federal environment, we may be able to leapfrog over the goals that we had set for ourselves in our states and our cities, and accomplish even more, and be even brighter beacons of what democracy can look like. And what it can deliver for our folks, you know, and [01:05:30] our folks being a really expansive.

[01:05:33] Um, descriptor. 

[01:05:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I also find that personally helpful because I think one of the other things that has been like, incredibly upsetting about, um, the election results here in California are the sort of like, uh, the failure of a lot of like progressive ballot measures here, the recalls of progressive DAs, mayors, things like that, that like, they don’t feel like they [01:06:00] portend well.

[01:06:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but also that, like, this is a, this is a live fight, you know, like, this is, these are things that, um, you know, I, I think there’s only so much looking backward at what happened that’s going to tell us about what comes next in terms of, of some of that kind of thing that, like, we are in some uncharted territory in some ways.

[01:06:23] Um, around, uh, creating progressive policy in states like California and that, like, [01:06:30] there are still opportunities, um, and that they are opportunities that are informed by the larger national political climate. 

[01:06:39] Connie Razza: Totally. And also, you know, I’ve, I’ve been thinking a lot about, um, the lessons that we can learn, not just from, like, our friends in, uh, Authoritarian states, but from other places that have faced authoritarian governments and, um, the folks [01:07:00] who study them, I don’t really study them.

[01:07:03] Um, but one of the things that, uh, has stuck with me has been, um, Maria Stefan from the horizons project. I has said a ton and I know it’s not just her. I feel like I’m also hearing Rachel Brown from over zero in my head and Scott Nakagawa. So. Um, that mostly people don’t approve of political violence, and if [01:07:30] we are able to help interpret what is happening for folks, they will revolt against it, they will resist it, and it will back, it will cause a backlash, and I think that actually our disposition, um, in resistance is, needs to be, how are we helping people to make meaning?

[01:07:55] for listening. Of what is coming, the onslaught, and it is an [01:08:00] onslaught, and how we can take action together to resist it and make it back, the backfire. Um, and so I know they talk about it in, um, the political violence context, but I do think that it is like a really helpful disposition because it is communitarian and it is, um, it helps us move out of a kind of despairing of the inevitability [01:08:30] of this and into a proactive stance.

[01:08:35] So, 

[01:08:36] Cayden Mak: yeah, I also hear in there too, that there’s like, there’s, um, you know, there’s like an ecosystem task, right? That is about like, it’s not, there’s not any one format formation or organizational form that can solve this alone. And that, in fact, like the relationship between, um, Organizations like Future Currents, [01:09:00] organizations like a big labor union, say SEIU or the UAW, organizations like, um, local people’s organizations or mutual aid organizations, movement media organizations, like, it is going to take all of us to make sense of what happens for people in ways that, like, encourage protagonism and encourage people to, like, see themselves as part of really a, like, change.

[01:09:26] active, activated majority that is trying to [01:09:30] make the world a more livable place for all of us. 

[01:09:33] Connie Razza: 100 percent and opportunities for people to, who might not ever be a part of any of those organizations. To participate in that activation. Yeah, totally. 

[01:09:49] Cayden Mak: Um, that’s amazing. I, yeah, I, I feel like I got a lot out of, uh, reading, um, and like spending some time with, uh, the report that you all did on the scenario [01:10:00] planning that you’ve, you’ve done.

[01:10:01] Um, I’m curious how folks, how our listeners can keep up with your work and find out more about what you’ve been studying. 

[01:10:08] Connie Razza: Totally. So. We are working on getting a website, but we don’t have one right now. So they can email us at info at future currents. org. 

[01:10:21] Cayden Mak: Great. Um, I’m sure you’ll be getting some emails from some listeners who want to see more about what’s been going on.

[01:10:27] Um, is there anything else you want to leave us with any other [01:10:30] learnings that you want to uplift? 

[01:10:33] Connie Razza: I think the one thing that I would say is I have really, um, been resourcing my heart with, um, The fact that we have gotten through authoritarianism on the federal level before the history of this country has been a history of [01:11:00] taking an exclusive idea of democracy that is in fact authoritarian for most people and expanding it, and we’re even In the midst of a backlash to that, but we have done this and we’ve got this and we’ve got each other.

[01:11:19] And I don’t at all mean to discount how hard it’s going to be, but I feel so resourced, um, by knowing [01:11:30] that and knowing that we’re in it together and by the communities that are coming together that exist, that like you all have been nurturing, um, that. Organizers have been nurturing that we live in and nurture in our lives.

[01:11:47] Um, and so that’s the one thing that I feel like we didn’t cover that I would say. 

[01:11:53] Cayden Mak: Yeah, no, I, on a call last week, a friend of mine said that we are different people than we were in [01:12:00] 2016. In a lot of really important ways and that that’s actually good, right? Like we’ve evolved also as individuals and changed and adapted to the conditions that we faced.

[01:12:10] Um, and there’s a, there’s a lot of processing of those changes that I actually think that we need to do more of in public. Um, and that like, I think in the coming months we’re going to be doing on this show. So yeah, thank you so much, Connie. It’s been a pleasure talking 

[01:12:26] Connie Razza: to you. It’s been a total pleasure here, too.

[01:12:28] Thank you so much.[01:12:30] 

[01:12:33] Cayden Mak: My thanks again to Waleed Shaheed and Connie Raza for joining me this week, and my thanks to all of you for sticking with us. You can find links to connect with them and their work in the show notes, including a link to Waleed’s Substack, a link to Future Current’s report on scenario planning. This show was published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights.

[01:12:53] I’m Caden Mock, and our producer is Josh Stro. If you have something to say, as always, you can drop me a line, send me an email [01:13:00] that we will consider running on an upcoming mailbag episode at [email protected]. And if you’d like to support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment, you can become a [email protected] slash donate.

[01:13:16] Even a few bucks a month goes a long way to making sure our independent small team can continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this [01:13:30] helps.