The Power to Win, with Miski Noor, Andrew Friedman, and Jacky Brooks

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:04] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build, a podcast from Convergence magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence, Caden Mock. On this show, we are building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the ascent of authoritarianism. while building the influence of a genuinely progressive trend in the broad front that we need to win.

[00:01:11] Before we get started, I would like to invite everybody to join our subscriber program. Convergence Magazine is an independent publication that relies on the generosity of our readers and listeners to create the rigorous, thoughtful takes that you’ve come to expect from us week in and week out. You can become a subscriber at convergencemag.

[00:01:27] com slash donate. Any amount helps, either as a one time donation or a recurring monthly or annual subscription. you On the show this week, I am joined first by the publisher of The Forge, Miski Noor, and the Senior Director for Strategy and Co Founder of The Action Lab, Andrew Friedman. We’ll be discussing their recently co published report on Organizing Towards Progressive Power, titled The Power to Win Report.

[00:01:49] Then I’m joined by Interim Executive Director of the Kairos Fellowship, Jackie Brooks, to talk about the ways big tech works to disrupt power. Progressive and Left Organizing, and the User Error series provided by Kairos to teach organizers and legislators what to watch out for and how we can fight back.

[00:02:04] But first, y’all, it’s a big headline week. You probably heard that New York City Mayor Eric Adams was arrested this week on charges related to corruption and bribery, laundering millions of dollars in campaign contributions from officials from six other countries. He’s the first sitting mayor to of the, of New York City to get indicted while in office, and other officials within his administration have been implicated in the scandal.

[00:02:27] I’m not going to get into all the details here, but I really recommend that you watch Queens Bay City Council member Tiffany Caban’s rundown on Instagram. She’s a Working Families Party champion, and she breaks it down in ways you can pick up fast, as well as following the fallout in real time. We’ll put the link to her Instagram in the show notes.

[00:02:45] In the meantime, the federal government’s meager help for people in the COVID 19 pandemic is staggering along. This time they are reinstating free rapid tests in the mail. You can order another round this month, which is good, but it’s a little late for back to school, and it’s yet again only four tests per address.

[00:03:02] It’d be great if we lived in a world and a country that took this seriously, but alas, here we are. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court ruled 6 3 against blocking the scheduled murder of Marcellus Khalifa Williams, a Missouri man who had been convicted of a crime that he did not commit. Despite over 1 million people calling on the governor of Missouri to halt the execution, he declined, making it necessary for Williams attorneys to appeal to the high court.

[00:03:29] It’s a travesty that this country continues to kill people as a punishment for crime and is the most extreme expression of a brutal system that isn’t actually designed to address harm, just make the people who’ve caused it disappear. Our thoughts go out to William’s family, friends, and the hardworking legal team who fought for him in spite of the odds.

[00:03:48] Israel continued its siege on Lebanon this week, and this morning the Lebanese Ministry of Health says that more than 700 people have been killed, including 50 children. Once again, it’s beyond time for Israel to be sanctioned, not just by the United States, but the entire international community.

[00:04:03] Representative Rashida Tlaib called on Secretary of State Antony Blinken to resign over news this week that was broken by ProPublica, that he ignored damning reports this spring from his own staff about Israel blocking humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. For Both the U. S. Agency for International Development and the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration separately found that Israel was blocking humanitarian aid.

[00:04:29] This is a clear violation of the law, which should have frozen nearly 830 million dollars of taxpayer money in weapons aid. But it didn’t. In fact, not long after the USAID report came out, Blinken appeared before Congress explicitly stating that the department’s findings were different. I’m super grateful to Representative Tlaib, and it’s not just Blinken who needs to be held accountable for this legal and moral travesty.

[00:04:54] There are a lot of people in the highest levels of our federal government who absolutely need to be taken to task here. And in U. S. election news, changes at the Georgia Board of Elections last week creates an alarming new vulnerability. To put it succinctly, the Georgia Board of Elections has been a mess since Donald Trump started falsely insisting that the results of the 2020 election in this state were wrong.

[00:05:17] Last week, the board made a new rule requiring a hand count of ballots before certifying results in the state, a move which will obviously slow election results and create more room for confusion, misinformation, and chaos to be weaponized by Trump in the weeks following election day. The board of five members, which as of this year has a majority of three Trump loyalists, is now being sued by a fellow GOP member over the last minute change of rules.

[00:05:43] Officials familiar with Georgia’s Board of Elections has been diplomatic in their rhetoric about the current state of their election law, claiming that blame for partisanship goes both ways. But we need to only go back as far as 2020 to understand what the Trump loyalists are doing in Georgia. If you will recall, late on the night of November 3rd, 2020, Donald Trump refused to concede the election.

[00:06:07] He continued to do so for months, telling lie after lie, alleging fraud, and endangering the lives of election workers in states like Georgia, eventually leading to the violent insurrection and attempted coup on January 6th. Now he’s had four years for his cultists to work their way into positions of power at state and local election boards.

[00:06:26] These are obscure offices. that voters pay very little attention to, making them prime areas for him to increase his influence over the democratic process with very little scrutiny. The new hand count rule plays into the media warfare approach advocated by former Trump strategist Steve Bannon, which they have successfully weaponized for years, to, quote, flood the zone with shit.

[00:06:48] If the election is close, which it seems like it might be, and relies on Georgia going blue to keep Trump out of office, journalists will indeed be fighting an uphill battle against another flood of shit as they try to accurately convey these convoluted rule changes to an anxious audience primed by confirmation bias and misinformation.

[00:07:07] No matter how diplomatic the language of state officials involved is, these people know exactly what they’re doing, and it’s extremely dangerous to our democracy. We need to organize and be ready to stop them. Just like we did in 2020. All right, um, I am pleased to welcome to the show, uh, Andrew Friedman and Miski Noor, um, who, uh, recently co published, uh, the Power to Win Report, which is a pretty extensive survey of folks who’ve been involved in organizing, um, about what gaps exist in the field and what opportunities there are, uh, to make some changes to address those gaps.

[00:07:47] Andrew Nilsky, welcome to Block and Build. 

[00:07:51] Miski Noor: Thanks for having us. Yes, thanks so much for inviting us and having us here, Caden. 

[00:07:54] Cayden Mak: Yeah, of course. Um, well, to start us out, uh, the report is big. Like, there’s a lot of information. Um, I spent a lot of time with it this week. Um, but for our listeners who maybe haven’t heard of it, maybe haven’t seen it, uh, maybe we could start with a little of the backstory of how the report came about.

[00:08:11] Um, Andrew, if you could tell us a little bit of the story of where this comes from, what’s the power working group and how did the idea for this report? 

[00:08:20] Andrew Friedman: Sure. Um, you know, I think that for a couple of years, uh, folks on the editorial advisory board of the forge, um, most of whom are sort of long term organizers from all over the country and different kinds of organizers.

[00:08:39] Some focused on worker organizing. A bunch more focused on community organizing. We’re frequently lamenting, um, what we view viewed as sort of the challenges, uh, of our field to respond to kind of the need, uh, to build more power, to wield our power more effectively, to, to more impactfully sort of stand up for what we believe in.

[00:09:15] And, um, After a while, we decided, um, that, you know, we shouldn’t just be lamenting the state of things, we should be, uh, you know, doing something about it together. Obviously everyone’s doing something about it, you know, with their individual jobs, and so we decided to form the power working group. Um, and, uh, and as part of the power working group, we sort of brought in a couple of other partners, the action lab where, uh, where I work and also the initiative for community power at NYU school of law.

[00:09:53] And we decided that our impressions were Important and many of us were sort of deeply rooted and well connected kind of actors in the field for many decades, but that we really needed to start the conversation by taking stock and, um, see what other folks outside of our orbit, um, we’re thinking. And so we pulled together, you know, a really ambitious list of maybe 150 or so organizers.

[00:10:27] We reached out to all of them, uh, and we tried to make sure that we had good race, gender, geography, organizing kind of area of focus, uh, diversity among the group. We reached out to folks. We said, would you be willing to talk to us for about an hour? Um, about a hundred people said yes. We then went through the process of talking to all of them, doing a really careful analysis of what folks said, tried to distill a bunch of headlines, um, around kind of both like areas of synergy and also areas where it felt like there was some interesting divergences of opinion.

[00:11:12] And then we distilled that into a survey and then sent that out to about 200 or so. other organizers, all of whom were, had been doing organizing for a number of years, sort of to, to give folks an opportunity to, uh, Double click or complicate what we had been hearing. And after that, we then put it all together and wrote up the power to win report.

[00:11:40] Cayden Mak: Amazing. So it sounds like there’s like altogether several hundred people who, whose insights have gone into this report. Um, This is a question for both of you, but I’d be curious to hear about things that sort of surprised you in here because I think that some of the top lines for sure for me feel very familiar and, uh, you know, just from conversations with folks that I know in the field, but I’m curious if each of you have some things that you found surprising or that really stood out to you from the whole process.

[00:12:07] I don’t know, Miski, let’s start with you. 

[00:12:10] Miski Noor: I was going to say, let’s start with Andrew because he’s actually, he has some really good reflections, um, that I think would be really helpful for folks. 

[00:12:20] Andrew Friedman: Awesome. Well, thanks. You know, I, for me in some ways, some of the, what I think was most surprising was the degree of consensus almost across the board, the, you know, literally almost everyone we spoke to expressed serious, serious concern around the state of the field.

[00:12:48] The fact that if we were to. Sort of follow out the trajectory of our work. We would not get to where we say we want to get to. And so, you know, put 10 organizers in a room. There are not that many things that 9. 5 of us will agree on. And so, you know, I think that was surprising to us. And secondarily, given the fact that there is such incredible consensus, alarm, concern, and also, uh, agreement about some strategic, uh, kind of interventions or evolutions that are needed.

[00:13:34] I think both Miski and I were really shocked at the fact that kind of the inertia and the challenge of our existing practice was leaving all of us so little space to actually lean into these vexing and challenging problems. So we have this, You know, um, kind of remarkable problem where the field agrees we must, you kind of build out some new tools, supports, interventions, methodologies, advancements.

[00:14:11] We need to go hard at questions of scale, power, strategy, and yet it’s this odd situation where the field writ large is is sort of almost too busy reacting to be able to get proactive about solving some of these these problems or leaning into addressing some of the challenges. 

[00:14:38] Miski Noor: Yeah, I would say overarchingly, that was the most surprising thing, and then I think for me, um, I was, uh, and maybe this is just me feeding into some of the narratives that we’ve even heard about ourselves, but, like, I, I think, like, one, I was so grateful that not only, like, this report, but other reports that are coming out are coming out from organizers, right?

[00:15:00] It was a big deal that we did this and this was for and by organizers. And I think a lot of this was just what we we kind of knew, but did not have numbers to actually back up. And so I think like one, just having the numbers. to back this up and to be able to be affirmed to be like, Oh, we knew we knew we’ve been saying this to each other.

[00:15:19] And now we have numbers to back us up, um, to be able to, to make some of these assertions. And then I think, um, the second thing that was like surprising to me was like the, the vastness of like the ideas around interventions, right? So often we’re told we don’t have any ideas. And we’re not practicing. We don’t have numbers behind us.

[00:15:41] And so I think just to be really affirmed that we do, we know what we’re talking about as organizers. Um, and that we also have lots of ideas about how we can intervene and that actually we just need some support to run this. Some of these interventions, some of these experiments to actually get us closer to the power that we need, um, to, to really, um, to, to idealize or to actualize the world that we believe we can.

[00:16:09] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I mean, that’s one of the things that really stood out to me in reading the report too, is that like, there’s such a sense that it’s like, we know what to do. But there are obviously structural barriers to like enacting a lot of that. Um, and I’m curious if, uh, you both could talk to kind of like, you know, is there a consensus about which, which structural barriers are sort of the most important or the most accessible or like what other ones may be, you know, sort of surface throughout the process that, you know, I think obviously philanthropy Seems like a really like clear barrier To shifting the way that the field does its work I’m curious if you heard about other things or have thoughts about like, you know The ways in which structural barriers stand in between our movements and our ability to build power 

[00:16:57] Andrew Friedman: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s an excellent question and in some ways, um We really wanted to, to get beyond kind of the, the tendency or the easiness of pointing fingers at others.

[00:17:20] Um, and saying, we’re not doing this because, you know, You know, we’re not funded to do this. We’re unable to find resources. That came through, notwithstanding the fact that we were not trying to kind of go there. And of course, the sector, most of it is funded by philanthropy, which was a thing that came out.

[00:17:40] And there’s, I think, real interest and enthusiasm for developing and innovating alternative revenue kind of models. And so of course philanthropy plays a role because, you know, in some ways what the community organizing field does is on some level, you know, the stuff that is at the overlap of the Venn diagram of what we and our organizations and our members kind of see as valuable and want to do and what Philanthropy sees as valuable and wants us to do and where they overlap is what we actually can do.

[00:18:22] That said, I think that, you know, there was Uh, a lot of circumspection about the fact that, you know, we are not, uh, doing nearly enough political education work. 

[00:18:40] Cayden Mak: Mm-Hmm, , we are 

[00:18:41] Andrew Friedman: not, uh, investing sort of enough brain power and creativity in creating truly welcoming. Accessible spaces for all organizers and for members to come into.

[00:19:01] We are not, uh, training, supporting and supervising our organizers almost at any level in the way that we aspire to. And so I think that that, you know, we are constrained, but we are not totally constrained, right? I mean, I, I spent many years at both Make the Road New York and at the Center for Popular Democracy.

[00:19:30] Both organizations have been Real resources, and they’ve got lots to do with those resources, but there is some capacity in all of our organizations to actually dedicate, uh, our capacity to some of these problems. And so I think in some ways we are turning, uh, now to. Kind of identifying with a little bit more precision some of the structural barriers and challenges and and also just practices.

[00:20:01] There’s a lot of inertia, right? And, um, you know, it’s easiest to do things the way that we have done them or know how to do them. And it’s much harder, especially when we are facing urgent and real threats every day to constantly be reacting. But you know what, you know, Miski and I and the Power Working Group and the folks at the Action Lab are focused on now is really going Caden, bringing folks together and getting serious You know, about pivoting from our analysis into action to address the challenges, to innovate new offerings and field responses that, that enable us to collectively step up and step into this challenge and build the left that we want to be part of and a left that can win.

[00:20:56] Miski Noor: Yes. Thank you so much for all of that, Andrew. And I’d love to add, um, Caden on our section. Uh, there’s a section of the report around barriers to building power on the left that you obviously know about, but to share for the, for the listeners and the, um, four things that, um, That really came up as far as folks like sharing their insights was really on the themes of resources, strategy, cooperation and inclusivity, right?

[00:21:22] Folks really commented on the impact of right wing interference and the structural weaknesses in U. S. Democracy with organizers naming that, you know, we don’t have the resources to support long term transformation. And just to give folks some numbers, you know, it was 55 percent of folks Um, that indicated that our current resources are insufficient, um, to speak to what Andrew was naming about philanthropic philanthropic organizations needing to shift their funding 85 or I’m sorry, 95 percent of folks we interviewed said that they need to be shifting their funding to power building 86 percent said to political education and another 86 percent 86 percent also said to coalition building efforts.

[00:22:03] Um, we also found that the Two thirds of organizers indicated that we should be orienting our power building efforts 10 years or more into the future. You know, like, so really speaking about we need to be looking 10 2030 50 years in the future and have our own plans toe to build towards that way. Um, and so we really are understanding that that clarity, that purpose that that must require from us as well.

[00:22:31] Because, like, you know, it is really clear Speaking when we’re speaking about long term vision, um that we are really losing ground. Um to the right. 

[00:22:40] Cayden Mak: Yeah Yeah, I think I think that that um is also a thing that is like really clearly pointed to by a lot of folks in in in the report that like You know the thing that we say all the time here is like we’re living at the apex of like a 60 year backlash against the gains of the civil rights era and I think that like in a lot of ways You That backlash has been incredibly well coordinated, incredibly well funded, and, uh, we’re, we’re going toe to toe with fractions of, of, of resources, and also having to respond to a really well funded machine that’s like churning out crises for us constantly.

[00:23:16] So, it makes a lot of sense, and it certainly resonates with me and my experience, so. Um, I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about, uh, who the, I, I, I feel like this because the report is so extensive and intensive, it seems that there’s definitely like a number of different audiences that you’re hoping receive this information and sort of digest it together.

[00:23:38] Um, but who are the folks that you were really had in mind when you’re putting things together and how you hope they use it? 

[00:23:46] Miski Noor: Yes. Um, I can get us started here if you want, Andrew and Kayden. Yeah. Um, I mean, obviously, you know, Audience number one is organizers, right? Um, uh, organizers just across the field and in particular organizers who know that we need to be contending for power more effectively and efficiently.

[00:24:06] I think like, especially right now we’re coming up on, um, An anniversary of a really sobering moment, right? The we know that we have been, uh, inside of the U. S. Funding a genocide, um, in Gaza for almost a year. And I think, you know, for the last year, organizers on the left have been really contending with the fact that we don’t even have enough power to do that.

[00:24:29] to stop our government from funding a genocide. Um, and so I think we organizers have really been thinking even the last year, like, how do we even contend with that? Um, and because it’s been a very horrifying reality to live inside of. And so, you know, progressive organizers across the country who have been pouring tremendous energy and ingenuity into campaigns to win policies to make our community stronger.

[00:24:54] You know, organizers who have been building relationships with residents, welcoming new members into their organizations, supporting those folks to take on increasing leadership in local, state and federal fights, um, organizers who are making heroic, heroic efforts to gather resources needed to support their work on an ongoing basis, who are pushing back against, you know, a relentless onslaught of right wing attacks.

[00:25:18] On our populations and communities, um, uh, which we are so deeply committed to, who know that even all of this work is still not enough, um, and have been really worried about our inability to amass insufficient or sufficient power, um, to, uh, face against our opposition, um, an increasing number of progressive organizers, um, Um, who are understanding, right, that there are higher and higher levels of alarm that we are feeling, um, and, uh, who are arguing for the transformation, um, of our racial, economic and climate justice, uh, movements, um, that we’re seeking, uh, to happen and know that our change has to happen.

[00:25:57] to, has to, or I’m sorry, that knowing that our approach has to change and you know, what we really want them to do with it, I think is like, you know, the four core goals that we’ve named inside of the report is one, like we really want them to use this to inform the current conversations, um, that they’re having, um, and to support groups on the American left to organize themselves around a serious.

[00:26:21] A series of rigorous shared analyses of the most salient challenges of the moment, um, to spark efforts by progressive organizations to ideate further. We want folks to take this further. This is supposed to be a tool. Um, and we know the work that we’re doing is iterative. And so we want folks to expand on the insights of this.

[00:26:39] that have been captured here. Um, we also want this to inspire, um, our, our comrades and colleagues in the field to intervene, come up with their own interventions, um, link up with folks, um, locally, um, to launch experiments, to test some of the proposals inside of, inside of the report. And then lastly, to really marshal, um, Human, financial and other resources and use them to infuse them across the field so that the promising interventions that folks are making can really be realized at scale 

[00:27:14] Andrew Friedman: 100%.

[00:27:15] I mean, I really 100%. And, and just to put a finer point, I mean, the On one thing, you know, we are trying to, it’s, it’s sort of like a call in to organizers that if we’re in it to win it, and I think we are, we must solve, like, we must solve these problems. Like no one’s coming to solve them for us. And it business as usual, even as heroic and beautiful and all consuming as it often is when you’re doing good organizing work.

[00:27:52] And there are Hundreds, if not thousands of people around the country doing amazing, powerful organizing work that is winning things. We, the big, we are not winning. We are losing ground on climate, on equality, on democracy. And so we must rise to the occasion and it is not enough to just point fingers. We are leaders.

[00:28:19] We must actually get together and lead our way out of the situation that we’re in to a more effective, more powerful, more impactful, uh, community organizing and worker organizing sector. 

[00:28:33] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I think, I think the, the intervention of thinking about this as like, like challenges that we’ve co created, uh, in some of our habits is, is super essential.

[00:28:45] Um, what’s the response been like so far? Um, how, how have people kind of taken this up? How have people responded to it? Um, are there folks who are already, You know, working on experiments that address some of this stuff. 

[00:28:57] Andrew Friedman: So, uh, I think first the, the response has been enthusiastic, uh, and, uh, there is a lot of eagerness to kind of get to this next phase.

[00:29:09] There’s a lot of like, Oh, we’ve been thinking about this. We’ve been wanting to lean in. We are leaning in. We’d love to hear what other folks are doing around the country. And that’s true both of folks in philanthropy and as Miski referenced, others in the organizing field have been looking at this.

[00:29:29] There’s, uh, you know, the 2050 report, People’s Action put out a report that many organizations kind of, uh, co sponsored, Future Currents put out. Uh, a first draft and we’ll be coming with the second draft. So there is this is bubbling up and I think across the board folks are are ready to kind of Lean in and try and work together to to solving some of the challenges we’ve identified and yet Folks are busy, right?

[00:30:02] We have a historic election, uh coming up There are right huge challenges. Uh, you know, you started the show by talking about uh, You know the corrupt and awful mayor of new york city where i’m sitting Um, there’s work to do and so this is It will require us to sort of, you walk in, chew gum, makes it sound like both things are easy.

[00:30:29] It’s like, walk, juggle, chew gum on our tiptoes, you know, in the snow or something. While putting out a fire. 

[00:30:37] Cayden Mak: I don’t know.

[00:30:44] No, that, that, that seems right. That it’s just like, man, this is, there’s a lot. There’s a lot on all of our plates. Um, yeah. And I, I think that like, I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve been thinking a lot about the, um, the Eric Adams thing about like, you know, how is this a movement moment? And like our, like, how can we, how can we swing this tide in the direction of, of greater justice?

[00:31:07] Um, when we also know that, you know, You know the sort of powers that be are often ready to to seize on a crisis like this So it’s I don’t know spicy. Um, Great anything else that you want our listeners to know about the report? Um, and where can people follow y’all’s work? 

[00:31:28] Andrew Friedman: Um, I think in terms of the report, folks can obviously you find it.

[00:31:32] I’m sure you’ll put the link. But, you know, both Miski and I are very open where we’d love to hear from folks. We’d love for folks to tap in on some of the kind of field wide collective efforts. Um, so we welcome that. And then, you know, to read about the action labs work, it’s just, uh, action lab. N. Y. dot. O.

[00:31:54] R. G. 

[00:31:57] Miski Noor: Yeah, I think I would add that like we are so interested in having more conversations with these folks. We’re going to be getting people together to talk more about this and obviously like what is next for around the interventions. And as I named, like obviously the primary audience um organizers, and also there are folks who are just, like adjacent to organizers, right?

[00:32:18] We’ve been talking about philanthropy. There’s lessons for them inside of this, for folks who are inside academia, anybody who actually wants to support organizing. And in particular, um, you know, the the Themes around the interventions are around power analysis, mapping beyond specific campaigns, strategic capacity training.

[00:32:37] Folks are interested in organizing academy. You know, um, folks are considered in. How are we making and maintaining, um, uh, connections and relationships with the community? and trust across our organizing spaces. Um, and how are we, uh, you know, having convenings to support learnings and build broadly to share analysis.

[00:32:57] And so, you know, folks who are capacity builders, folks who are trying to also support organizing in different ways, like we want to have these conversations with you as well, and we want you to read the report and think about how do we all support. organizing across the field to be stronger, to be more strategic and to get us to a place in which we are really feeling impacts and can change the material conditions of our communities.

[00:33:18] Um, and for folks who want to be connected to the forge, we’re at forge organizing. org. And, you know, I’d love to have you pitch me or me pitch you on why you should be writing for us. And so let’s definitely get connected. 

[00:33:32] Cayden Mak: Awesome. Miski and Andrew, thank you so much for making the time. Thank you so much for this great work and this rigorous research.

[00:33:38] Uh, I really appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks so much for having us. 

[00:33:42] Miski Noor: Yes. Thanks Convergence. Thanks Block and Build. 

[00:33:44] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Take care, y’all. Ciao. I’m sure that many of our listeners can recall cringing at a clip of Mark Zuckerberg in front of the Senate. And as laughable as some of that is, it’s no secret that big tech is a crucial part of the American oligarchy.

[00:33:59] What the leaders of big tech titans like Meta, Google, Apple, and Amazon do impacts all of us, and the bigger they get, the harder they become to take to account for their choices. Between legislatures that don’t get how TikTok works, to the revolving door between big tech and government, including key agencies and the White House, power has hunkered down over the past decade to protect big tech’s interests, often, and often undermining our movements.

[00:34:23] There’s a growing field of organizations dedicated to understanding this terrain and fighting back. One that, for full disclosure, I’ve been a part of for the past 15 years. This fight back is essential because the internet and technology aren’t going anywhere. But we can’t just accept it the way it is because the Valley’s bad business models and oligarchic government have combined to create a toxic stew that’s bad for human beings, the environment, and bad for democracy.

[00:34:48] So how do everyday people become fully enfranchised in the governance and design of the technology that shapes our lives? Joining me today to talk about this huge question is the Interim Executive Director of the Kairos Fellowship where, full disclosure, I sit on the Board of Directors and Kairos Action, uh, Jackie Brooks.

[00:35:05] Uh, Jackie, thank you so much for making the time to talk to me today. 

[00:35:08] Jacky Brooks: Thanks for having me. Um, 

[00:35:10] Cayden Mak: for starters, uh, could you tell a little bit, uh, tell our listeners a little bit about Kairos work, give a little context, um, for, uh, the research and reports that we’re going to talk about today? 

[00:35:21] Jacky Brooks: Yeah, I can definitely do that.

[00:35:23] So Kairos is really focused on, we’re a racial and social justice organization focused on building a multi racial democracy here in the U. S., and we believe that in order to get to that democracy, we really do need tech governance. Um, and that governance needs to be driven by the collective, the people, um, without that a multi racial democracy isn’t possible.

[00:35:45] So we are focused on questions, um, and asking the question and answering the question, what does it mean to build power online on the internet? But also, like, how can our movements do so in a way that doesn’t mirror the big, the harms of Big Tech? Text so that we can reach, um, why say governance of the Internet?

[00:36:04] Um, so we do this in a couple of ways. We have a fellowship model where we actually work with and partner with organizations within states to actually talk about what does it mean to build power online, um, for our movements, uh, wherever we’re building power. Um, but also how can we do it in a way that meets the needs of our, the moment and the needs of our organizations.

[00:36:27] Um, and we also focus on actually running some campaigns against big tech, doing corporate accountability work, um, and also doing some advocacy work to kind of uncover the what’s happening with big tech and how it’s harming our movements. Um, 

[00:36:43] Cayden Mak: that’s awesome. I think the power building work is going to be of particular listenership.

[00:36:49] Um, and I’m curious about if you could talk a little bit to the ways in which this is like a little bit of a different model for how to do accountability. Um, around technology, because I think that, you know, for a very long time, a lot of the work that people were doing was like getting folks to sign petitions and sort of relying on the goodwill or the movability of leaders of big tech companies to kind of bend to the will of the people and, and, you know, I’m curious, like, about that model and if you could speak to, to what the sort of opportunity is there.

[00:37:28] Jacky Brooks: Yeah, well, I think, you know, when we first started, we were looking more specifically into how, um, uh, organizers of color, it kind of flex power and bring the power that was in the digital realm and on the internet, um, to our communities. And I think through that process, the thing we realized is, We can, you know, do amazing petitions and digital organizing work, but the reality is we don’t control the internet.

[00:37:55] Um, the internet was built in a way that really serves the purpose of corporations. It is driven off of capital, capitalism, and so there was a really big reckoning for us around how do we actually do the organizing we need to do, build the power we need to build. When the platforms that we’re using are not serving our interests.

[00:38:16] And that was a really big moment for us. And so when we think about, you know, what does it mean to actually be consumers? I actually ask the question, you know, what, what is our relationship to the internet and the tools that we use that so embedded in our lives, right? As organizers, as folks within our movements, but also it’s just like humans, right?

[00:38:35] And so I actually like to say we shouldn’t be, we’re not just consumers, but rather we’re constituents of the internet in the digital realm. We have stake in this place, the internet, and we should be able to really dictate the terms and conditions on how we exist and function. On the internet and how the internet treats us and how it interacts with our lives in a way that doesn’t come caught arm.

[00:38:58] And so that was a pretty significant, um, shift for us in our thinking. 

[00:39:03] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that, that seems pretty huge. Cause it, I think that like, uh, big tech benefits from us thinking of ourselves as users or consumers, as opposed to like fully enfranchised, like people who have agency. And trying to build, I, like, I’m, I’m sure it helps them build these sort of like full, like, what is the word?

[00:39:28] This sort of like full, uh, stack kind of like platforms that you’re supposed to like spend all your social time there. And they’re also for work and all this, and they’re also for shopping and, and whatever else. That’s like, yeah. 

[00:39:41] Jacky Brooks: But 

[00:39:41] Cayden Mak: it, 

[00:39:41] Jacky Brooks: you know, 

[00:39:42] Cayden Mak: it 

[00:39:42] Jacky Brooks: also, because they, Kind of created this and again, I think it’s important to name like we as like constituents and people were not Centered in the design around these things like money was and so because big check has been able to kind of crack this it also It also kind of has allowed them to really you kind of detach us from This this conversation or this question around like how do we want this to look for us?

[00:40:12] And it’s really, it’s really been embedded in like, again, not just like our work and, but like in every aspect of our lives, um, which it really, you know, I think we’re, we’re getting to a moment where at a place where a lot more people and our movement to frame the questions and see the impact around big tech, but, um, it is, it’s almost all encompassing every time I think about it, which is really shocking.

[00:40:36] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s also, I think the, the insight that, uh, You know, you’re really drawing out here too, is that at the same time that these, uh, big tech companies have kind of taken over our lives, our movements have come to rely very deeply on the internet in a lot of ways. And like, there’s any number of kind of punctuated movement moments we can point at, even in the past year, um, where the internet has been critical to informing people, mobilizing people, and really being like, Um, and sometimes when the physical realm feels like kind of alienating or that, like, our political perspectives feel really isolate.

[00:41:20] So that seems really big too. 

[00:41:22] Jacky Brooks: Yeah. And you know, I think oftentimes when we talk to people and other organizers about the internet, I think there’s also, there’s like an initial shock of like, whoa, this is bad. This is off the map. Like what are we doing? And I think it’s a really, it’s a really important thing for us to remember.

[00:41:39] Like, actually there are good. Parts of the internet, the connection we get with folks, you know, um, I was just talking to someone around like how I actually like the way I was able to step into some aspects of my identity around queerness, like it happened in online spaces and that was very comforting and that’s the story that is actually like really common for a lot of people weren’t able to access that in their personal, physical lives at a particular moment and so I think the real question for us is, you know, I want to see, again, of humans, like, how do we kind of wrestle with that and wrestle with, like, the good and, like, not so great parts about the internet?

[00:42:21] And also, how are we understanding, like, the power in this space to really ensure we’re protecting, um, and fighting for the things we are fighting for within our movements? 

[00:42:33] Cayden Mak: Yeah, for sure. Um, I really identify with that, too. I, back in the, I mean, at this point, almost ten years ago, when we were working on Net Neutrality the first time, Um, one of the things I, I wrote a piece about how like, you know, as a teenager, I was really lucky that I got the internet.

[00:42:51] At home. Um, because my mom was a school teacher and like, she got a free computer and she was like, this internet thing seems cool, and I started meeting queer people who are older than me and I was like, oh, there’s another way that people can be? Like, this is cool. Um, this is very like, helpful growing up in like a pretty like, strongly, strongly normative like suburban environment where, you know, there’s a lot of pressure to conform.

[00:43:20] So totally have also had that experience, but man, speaking of walled gardens, the, uh, AOL message boards, big throwback. Well, anyway, the other thing that, uh, I wanted to ask you about is the series of reports that you all have been working on since about 2022 is the user error reports. And the past installments in 22 and 23 are really focused on regular people and participants in social movements to really think critically about the role the internet plays in different issues.

[00:43:54] And I mean, it’s like, especially around sort of queer people and finding safe spaces, the subject of one of these reports. Um, but the new set of user error reports that are coming out this year, um, are a collaboration with the state innovation exchange. Um, who does sort of like, like progressive policy stuff in the, at the state level.

[00:44:18] Um, and I’m curious how that work came about and why you all think it’s so important to be making this kind of intervention at the state level. 

[00:44:26] Jacky Brooks: Yeah. So I think, you know, as you mentioned, the report started in 2022 and we were really just examining, you know, how do we. Make the connection more clearly for ourselves and the movement around like how inner tech interacts with the issues that we care about and more importantly, like the issues that people are fighting for on on the ground.

[00:44:50] Right? And so, you know, we’ve done some reports around you, uh, reproductive justice, um, LGBTQ rights, um, the climate, but this particular series with the state innovation, innovation exchange really came out of a place. Uh, where we wanted to dive into more tangible aspects of, like, how we’re moving forward with this information and analysis that we’re offering to the field.

[00:45:11] And what are some really clear, concrete ways that we can move on it. And so I think this had a really great partnership with the State Innovation Exchange, um, to provide, um, electeds and people in the policy space. Um, with the resources and analysis that they don’t always have the capacity to research and come to, um, because there are so many things that we’re fighting for in this moment.

[00:45:36] And so, you know, it’s. I think it’s really important to connect with organizations and groups like the State Innovation Exchange and to connect with folks, particularly at the state level within states that are doing really key power building work in this moment, um, because, you know, we are seeing the limits.

[00:45:54] We’ve seen the limits of what can happen at the federal level and in the court on a multitude of levels. And I think this is a really key moment for us. Like, To really ask ourselves, like, what does it mean to build long term power? We’re talking about black and build until like, when I think about that, um, focusing in on what’s happening at the states and making state interventions actually feels like really necessary step in doing this, right?

[00:46:18] So, we’ve been really wrestling with, you know, what does it mean to have governing power at all levels of, you know, of our government, um, and the tools that we have to continue to fight for the liberation we know we deserve and need. And that’s really been a key moment around, like, why we partnered with this, the Innovation Exchange to get this report out.

[00:46:40] And, you know, our name in this report, we really focused on, okay, what are some key recommendations or key next steps on what can happen? This report, um, you know, is a series of reports. Um, this first report was around workers rights and AI, which is a very, very, You know, emergent technology that’s already having significant impacts, um, on our lives, whether it’s through work, climate and other things that we talked a little bit about that.

[00:47:04] Right? We’re talking about, you know, what does surveillance, how does AI enable surveillance at work? How is it enabling the suppression of union rights? How is it by enabling data mining? Right? Like, People are coming to work and like there’s a pattern like being used outside of the context of their job.

[00:47:22] Like that is a pretty significant thing or how is it like creating a pretty clear loss of decision making on autonomy for workers. And so, you know, our hope is that in our goal is that we’re as we continue to connect with partners, the really great partners like the state innovation exchange. We’re able to provide the analysis and, like, build connections and deep partnerships to combat this in the moment while also building out a vision of, like, we know this doesn’t need to, it doesn’t need to be this way, it shouldn’t be this way, how are we creating a vision for, like, a better tomorrow and a better future long term?

[00:47:58] Cayden Mak: Yeah, I mean, it also strikes me that, like, at the state level, there’s all these sort of opportunities and vulnerabilities where, like, a lot of, in a lot of states, state legislatures aren’t, legislators aren’t even, like, full time legislators. Like, there’s, it’s like, and, like, big states too, like, I mean, they’re just, like, not designed, or they’re set up in, in ways that sort of reflect an older model of, like, you know, all these, like, basically property owning white people are supposed to be in the legislature and then, whatever.

[00:48:29] Right. But then, like It makes it hard for, for people to understand like what the real impacts of, of stuff that is also being aggressively sold to us in the way that AI is. 

[00:48:40] Jacky Brooks: Yeah. Concerning. But I mean, I think that’s such an important point, but I think another aspect of it is also because this is also new, like a lot of it is new.

[00:48:51] You know, power building, this is a long term fight and it has been, but the technologies we’re grappling with and are impacting our lives are so new. So, you know, I think about, um, how justice Keegan has said, like the SCOTUS, they are internet experts. Um, Senator Boomethaw, I don’t know if you remember a couple of years ago, kind of asked, like, what are you talking about?

[00:49:13] Finsta, that’s the global head of security at Facebook at that. And so I think there’s also in the. There’s like another piece of this that’s really about, you know, we, right, like our, our electeds, like, especially at the state level, don’t have the, they, they don’t have the policy chops or like the resources to really dive into these things, but also like, it’s so new and like the people in office don’t have the expertise to like really land, like, okay, and ask the questions that we’re asking because this is so new and they don’t have the expertise.

[00:49:45] So I think that’s another, really the big thing to kind of wrestle with as we keep talking about like. What it means to, for technology to have such a stakeholder over our lives, um, and in our lives and like the power that it comes with that and who is really executing on and who is holding that power in particular.

[00:50:03] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And, you know, I, I’m so glad that you brought up this question of governing power that it really just feels like this is about contesting for that in a meaningful way, um, which I guess leads me to the question, uh, are there any examples of ways that, uh, this, these reports are being leveraged by decision makers, movement organizations, folks to, uh, inform the policy positions or demands they might be making, or even in the case of Actual legislators, like shaping the policy that they’re putting forward.

[00:50:36] Jacky Brooks: Yeah. Well, I would say we’ve already gotten really great feedback from movement partners on how the information in the report has been enlightening and actually allows them to strengthen their works and their fights that they’re in the fights they’re engaged in. So they’re actually able to bring in targets around big tech in a way that they might not have considered before.

[00:50:55] I think that. The UE reproductive justice, the user error reproductive justice is a really great example of that. We’ve also had like movement partners actually reach out to us. Um, we do campaigning work, um, and want to partner with us and throw down with us around some like really key, amazing campaigning things that we’re doing.

[00:51:14] So an example of that would be our no primate results found campaign that we’re actively working on now. And that actually came out of the user error climate report that we did, um, a while ago. And so. You know, that campaign is really focused on exposing Google’s hypocrisy around their climate targets, you know, they’re kind of saying, hey, we want to help, but also like doing all this very harmful, harmful stuff that actually, like, it’s extremely conflicting.

[00:51:40] And so, you know, that is the direct response to the climate report. And so our goal is like, we’re going to continue to offer tangible policy recommendations on how we combat the harm. That big text enacting, um, and going to keep working to support elected officials and like actually using this analysis in their work.

[00:52:01] Really excited to see what that looks like next couple of months in a year. Awesome. 

[00:52:07] Cayden Mak: Um, what are the, what are the next reports that are going to come out? What are the topics they are planning to tackle? 

[00:52:13] Jacky Brooks: Yeah, so we recently had the, like I mentioned, the user error workers rights, um, and AI, we are actually going to release, we release, um, a targeted version for, um, elected officials and legislators, um, around UA democracy.

[00:52:30] So we talk about, like, how technology impacts democracy, which is a very big topic, but very, very relevant, you know, it’s just a little bit. Nope. But, um, there’s that, and then there’s also, um, we’re, we, we’re talking about reproductive justice again. So, you know, those are the topics that we’re going to focus on for now and, but we’re going to keep coming back to it because I think there’s so many intersections of like how technology intersects with our work in our lives.

[00:53:03] Cayden Mak: Yeah, no, it’s, it seems like, uh, following up on even things that maybe were published like a year or two ago is necessary because the field is evolving pretty quickly. Um, and I feel like there’s always somebody trying to come up with some new way of surveilling people or leveraging people’s data against them.

[00:53:23] Um, that’s great. Uh, how can our listeners follow Kairos’s work, uh, make sure they see these new reports when they come out? Um, and plug into some of the campaigns that you were working on. 

[00:53:36] Jacky Brooks: Yeah, you, um, folks can definitely go to our website, www. kairosfellows. org, um, to actually find the reports. That’s where we place them once they’re released.

[00:53:47] Um, and folks can also follow us on Instagram, um, at, um, our, our respective, um, handles. So techisnotneutral and then kairosaction, um, on Instagram. Yeah. Perfect. Um, is there anything else that you want folks to know? No, just that, you know, we want to continue to fight, um, until technology works for all of us and not just some.

[00:54:12] Cayden Mak: Fantastic. Uh, thank you so much for making the time to chat and, uh, we’re looking forward to those next reports. Thank you so much. All right, I hope you all enjoy those conversations with folks from our movements who are doing research that’s going to help our movements be more effective. Um, this show is published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights.

[00:54:33] I’m Caden Mock, and our producer is Josh Elstro. If you have something to say, please drop me a line. You can send me an email that we’ll consider running on an upcoming Mailbag episode at mailbag at convergencemag. com. And if you’d like to, Support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment.

[00:54:52] You can become a member at patreon or at convergencemag. com slash donate. Even a few bucks a month goes a long way to making sure our independent small team can continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this helps.