Protecting Migrant Communities in the New Trump Era

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: What’s up everybody? Welcome to Block and Build a podcast from Convergence Magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence Caden Mak. On this show, we are building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win.

Before we get started, I wanna give big shout outs to Eileen in Oakland, grace in Brooklyn, and Shira in the Bronx for signing up for monthly subscriptions at the Movement Builder level. Convergence Magazine is independent publication that relies on the generosity of readers and listeners just like them to create the rigorous and thoughtful takes that you’ve come to expect from us.

Week in and week out. You can join them by becoming a [email protected] slash donate. Any amount helps either as a one-time donation or a recurring monthly or annual subscription. This week on the show, I’m first joined by journalist and friend of the pod, Sarah Lazar, discussing her new article this week in the Nation, covering how American healthcare workers are defending their transgender patients from Trump’s executive order attacks.

Then for our main segment, I’m joined by executive director of Mete Mari Franco. We’ve got a lot to talk about responding to conditions right now for immigrants while building power in immigrant communities, and how corporate surveillance from Big Tech has transformed the way immigration enforcement works.

But first, these headlines, the central theme of which seems to be that the cracks are showing. I. Last week, Congress was on recess, which led to some pretty spectacular moments in town halls. Constituents bringing their outrage directly to their lawmakers, including one in Kootenai County, Idaho, where a woman speaking up was forcibly removed by unidentified men in plain clothes who refused to identify themselves.

When she was removed from the event, local police showed up, unclear about who these men were or who they were even working for. It turns out that they were working for a private security firm, although they were at the town hall with the county sheriff who has previously gone viral for MAGA theatrics at the local library.

Sheriff Norris later claimed to the cord Daling PO at Post False press that he did not know who hired them or why they were there. The security firm in question is Lear Asset Management. They have a history of passing themselves off as law enforcement and being used against protestors, both in Idaho and also here in Northern California, as to when and why they began operating in Idaho.

That’s still a little unclear. But what is interesting to me about all of this is there appears to be a divide between the cour d’Alene police chief, who recently also revoked Lear’s license to operate in the city and county Sheriff Norris, who clearly is fully mag pilled. Experts on civil resistance to authoritarianism have pointed out.

The police and the military are crucial to upholding an authoritarian regime, and while the police are definitely not our friends, this points to potentially exploitable cracks in the edifice. MAGA has less power than they’re trying to project, and even the cops sometimes aren’t on board. We were also delighted to see Maine’s governor Janet Mills going toe to toe with Trump to his face over the administration’s gender policing executive order.

[00:03:16] Sound on Tape: The NCAA has complied immediately, by the way. That’s good. But I understand Maine, is the Maine here, the governor of Maine here, are you not gonna comply with it? I’m complying with state and federal laws. I’m, we are the federal law. You better do it. You better do it because you’re not gonna get any federal funding at all if you don’t.

And by the way, your population, even though it’s somewhat liberal, although I did very well there. Your population doesn’t want men playing in women’s sports, so you better com, you better comply because otherwise you’re not getting any federal funding. See you in court. Every state. Good. I’ll see you in court.

I look forward to that. That should be a real easy one. 

[00:03:56] Cayden Mak: So the backstory here is there is a student athlete who is outed by a MAGA state rep on social media and the governor and democratic lawmakers stood by state law and policies, which include protections against discrimination based on gender identity and expression.

So when Trump calls her out in this meeting with governors at the White House last Friday, she stood up to his threats. And we need to see more of this kind of standing up to Trump, including to his face from people who are in positions of power. Finally, funny might be the wrong word to use here, but as a person who is a Catholic in recovery, I find it pretty amusing that 2019 Convert and self-proclaimed quote, baby Catholic JD Vance has been finding himself tangling with the Pope about what Catholic teaching actually means.

Backhanded com comments from Vance at a national prayer breakfast this morning attempted to credit Pope Francis’ leadership while also still refusing to back down from. The D Draconian MAGA deportation policies, which the Pope explicitly named and shamed Vance about two weeks ago. Vance claimed this morning that he wasn’t there to litigate about quote, who’s right and who’s wrong.

The point of disagreement is that the 88-year-old pontiff has been critical of the maggot immigration crackdown, and also specifically vance’s deployment of niche Catholic writings often weaponized by white supremacists to justify it. By the way, the Pope is in the hospital with pneumonia. Apparently Vance and his family are praying for him every day while all this has been playing out.

There is another lesson here, and it’s that it turns out you can fight back from many places including a hospital bed. Another thing that experts on author authoritarianism tell us is that faith communities have a huge role to play in mounting the civil resistance. And I hope to see more faith leaders call out the cruelty hypocrisy and bad faith bullshit from the MAGA cultus in the weeks to come.

Now I’m joined by a writer for the nation, Sarah Lazar. Her latest piece this week for the Nation covers the way that healthcare workers are defending their trans patients from the attacks of Trump’s executive orders. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us to talk about your piece. 

[00:06:23] Sarah Lazare: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

[00:06:25] Cayden Mak: Let’s to start out, let’s give a little context for this story. What were you hearing about that led you to pursue it? How did it take shape? 

[00:06:33] Sarah Lazare: It really took shape because I went to a protest here in Chicago where I live against UI Health, amid reports that they had paused some of their gender affirming care.

And when I got there, I was really struck by how many workers and unions were there. The graduate employees organization was there SCIU 73 was there. And I started talking with organizers and I asked, are there healthcare workers at their hospitals who are mobilizing to defend their transgender patients?

And then through movement networks, I was able to find those people. And part of why I was so curious is because, we’ve seen examples of hospital administrations complying in advance or maximally complying with Trump. Not everywhere in some cases, but not all cases. And the fact that it’s not in all cases shows that it is possible to, not maximally comply.

But a question I had is, as administrations do this, how do their workers feel about it? Workers who often have close relationships with their patients who maybe got into this work because they believe in the basic rights and dignity of trans youth and gender diverse youth. How do they respond to this moment?

And I was able to find some really interesting stuff. 

[00:07:57] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I thought it was interesting that you talked to healthcare workers, not just in states that are notoriously bad on trans rights, but also healthcare workers, like you said in Chicago, in Los Angeles, that this is like not just a this is it’s like uneven, even according to like state policy and the like political atmosphere in particular places that this is playing out.

[00:08:18] Sarah Lazare: 24 states had, even before Trump’s flurry of executive orders had some kind of ban on gender affirming care for transgender youth. And then, that meant that places like Lurie Children’s Hospital in Chicago were a place that people could cross state lines to go to get healthcare for their kids.

Also, places like children’s hospitals, Los Angeles. So then when you start seeing Lori, for example pausing surgeries it generated a lot of concern because these are the safe havens. These are the places where people go. It’s also, there’s also a certain lack of transparency. Some of what I tried to do in this piece was just report out what exactly is going on.

You don’t wanna overstate it, right? Like you don’t wanna overstate the issue because it’s a really upsetting, scary time for chil for youth and their families. And you don’t wanna like unnecessarily terrify people. But you do wanna accurately capture the picture. And I think some of what I found out is that when there’s confusion and lack of transparency, that in itself can lead to.

Delays or appointments getting canceled, and as long as appointments aren’t happening, people aren’t getting the care they need. So another goal is just clarity. 

[00:09:38] Cayden Mak: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And one of the things that did stick out to me about that too is just how it can be very hard to get information, like actual information about what’s going on right now because of, part of it is like privacy laws, but then part of it is I imagine a lot of these hospital administrators don’t want to be seen as maximally complying with the administration.

So that seems like a complicated place. 

[00:10:01] Sarah Lazare: Yeah. Yeah. And, so one of the people I talk to is an organizer with California Nurses Association, which is part of National Nurses United, which is the biggest union of RNs in the country. And that individual is organizing a Kaiser Permanente in San Francisco and South San Francisco with the ultimate goal of winning sanctuary hospital throughout the Kaiser system.

Sanctuary, both for transgender and gender. Diverse youth, but then also for immigrants and people who are targeted by Trump’s escalated crackdown. And that person told me that, one of the unnerving things is that, Kaiser to this point has not indicated that it plans to comply, but that individual is also worried.

That if they did comply, they wouldn’t even find out, or that the only way they would find out is through the parents of trans kids. 

[00:10:52] Cayden Mak: Sure, yeah. 

[00:10:53] Sarah Lazare: That’s why they were trying to take proactive action in advance. Yeah. 

[00:10:57] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also have to ask you what it was like to report this, because I imagine a lot of the healthcare workers that you talked to are feeling pretty antsy about the political environment and are very aware of the potential risks that they’re taking in related to speeding out, speaking out about this.

[00:11:12] Sarah Lazare: There was definitely a good amount of concern about protecting privacy. I did notice a pattern where people who are mobilizing with their unions as part of their unions were more comfortable going on the record. I, or it was a little mixed, like sometimes they would go on the record but didn’t want their hospital’s name in the piece because that could lead to retaliation.

But then I also talked to people who work for clinics who are, that are relying on federal funding and they, didn’t even want me to say what city, or even what part of the country they’re in or really anything at all that was identifiable. And it’s really understanding. It’s a, it’s an intense climate and I think also people are feeling very protective of the services that they do provide.

They just don’t wanna jeopardize them in any way. 

[00:12:03] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing this reporting with us, Sarah, and talking a little bit about the story. We will have the link to the full story in the show notes. I think it’s really important to highlight the ways in which, especially organized labor can play a role in fighting back against some of this stuff.

[00:12:20] Sarah Lazare: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. 

[00:12:22] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Take care.

All right. The Trump administration is still moving forward with its ambitious and cruel plans of mass deportations. And it’s been slipping from the headlines a little bit in favor of bureaucrat, the bureaucratic chaos that’s being created by Elon Musk and Doge. But the threat is no less serious today than when Trump adv advance campaigned on extremely racist demands for more mass deportations.

I. Of millions of undocumented immigrants from the United States. Mete is a political organizing home for Latinx and Chicanx communities to build power without, against and within the state. Joining me to discuss what’s going on and also help us understand the work that’s being done to defend.

Immigrant communities across the country is Executive director of Mete, Marisa Franco. Marisa, thank you so much for making the time to join me today. I’m sure you are very busy right now. 

[00:13:27] Marisa Franco: Thanks for 

[00:13:27] Cayden Mak: having me. It’s good to see you, Kayden. Yeah, likewise. Been a long time. Yeah, it has been a long time. But I’ve been keeping track of all the stuff that you all are working on, and I have a lot of admiration for the vision that you’ve been able to hold at Ente for all these years.

And I think that one of the places I wanted to start is also talking about the long-term organizing approach that you all have taken over the. Past several years and how it’s prepared you for this moment, because I know that you and I have been in conversations about the surge in white nationalist organizing, the surge in authoritarian organizing.

I. For a very long time. Probably, I would say a decade is probably a ago, is probably when we first met specifically in rooms talking about this question. Yeah. Could you give our listeners a little overview of this, the long-term organizing approach that you all are taking?

I. 

[00:14:20] Marisa Franco: Yeah, I’ll do my best. We, so Hanta actually turns 10 this year, and so we started in 2015. I think it’s an important marker because the same time that we started was the same year. That Donald Trump famously descended from his golden escalator in Trump towers. And we were coming outta the people that started like the kind of founding crew had previously, worked together fighting deportations in the Obama administration.

That led to different policies trying to stop deportations and one of the things coming out of that period obviously continued, but, campaign start in. But one of the things that for me was, was like a big reflection was clocking the political, the cultural and demographic and social change in the United States.

Would produce a backlash. So 2015, if we think back it’s, you have marriage equality enacted not too long before. You have a insurgent movement asserting the right to black life. And calling out police brutality and police murder of black people. You have it’s on the tail of pretty unprecedented organizing by undocumented people.

Undocumented youth who fought and ultimately won daca. Undocumented workers, undocumented adults fighting deportations. But also in 2015, a couple of statistics from the Pew Research Center. It was the year that the middle class in the United States was no longer the biggest sort of economic class.

You had millennials surpass boomers in terms of population. It marked, over the last 50 years, marked 59 million immigrants had come into the United States. Multiracial people who identify as multiracial we’re the fastest growing population. And you had record numbers in the lowest, like record breaking on the low end of people’s trust in government.

Which has been a strategy of the right for decades. And you take all of this. And following the Romney loss, the Republicans famously conducted a postmortem where one of the takeaways was like, y’all gotta get it together. You gotta, bring in different people into your coalition.

Y’all a little too racist. What? Blah, blah. And Trump basically bucked all of that. 

So 

a lot of the conversations strategizing, assessing after the loss of Romney, I I read this article in The Economist many years ago. It was like one of the things that like, was like one of my brain tanks when you were trying to think of, there was this sort of debate inside of whoever it is that you consider the economist pe people that followed the Economist are and I don’t know if it was in the article or if I ended up naming it that, but there was a group that was like the assimilationist.

Which kind of more prescribed or believed in the assessment of we need to figure out how to reach to other audiences, come more to the center and, but it was also like looking at, look like the United States is changing. We need to acknowledge that we need to bring other people into the coalition and convince them into the American project as we see it.

And then there was like the Annihilationists who basically were like, fuck that. And so Trump, really embody that faction and ultimately won and broke the Republican party. So today when people are like, Republicans did this strategy, it was so brilliant, no, I wasn’t. Someone came in and beat their ass repeatedly and completely changed the party.

Which kind of, we could get into what needs to happen with the Democratic party, but maybe a little later. I think comes out of a, an assessment that, you know. Demographic change is happening in this country. And for many years, there’ve been this demographics as destiny and like this new emerging progressive, new American majority in our estimation.

Like I’m a Chicana. My, my father is an immigrant from Mexico. I’m from Arizona. And I look around and understand my family and I think many other Latinx folks could confer. Not so sure that Latinos will be this automatic progressive majority. We have to organize them. Sure. And also reflecting on the lessons of the immigrant Rights movement.

Tremendous organizing. Tremendous organizing done by undocumented people. Bravery, leadership, paving, ground winning shit, stopping deportations, and ultimately not getting to where we needed to go. And, the immigrant rights movement had for so long, contorted itself. To convince white Americans why you should want immigrants, we’ll grow your food.

We’re workers, we’re this, we’re that. And to me there was this real blind spot with us born people of color. 

Of 

which I, my fam some of my family would be part of that. And oftentimes being completely left out. And the primary issue not being documentation status, but just being working class in the United States in a time where shit’s not looking good.

And Hanta comes out of this we need to build broader political power to continue to fight for immigrant justice, but we also need political organization for Latinx people who, this isn’t working. The math ain’t math thing. 

And we need a left political formation inside the Latino community.

So we were trying to address gaps both in organizing infrastructure, but political. Political imagination political platform. And so we set off to do that. And I think, emblematically in 2015 when all this is happening, and in many ways, at the time we talked about, the coming backlash.

And I think the only thing that has surprised me because I think it did obviously happen what surprised me in the end was how quickly it has happened. 

[00:20:07] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. I think the speed of a lot of this is like a little bit, it’s definitely mind-boggling. And I the threads that I wanna pull on a little bit are, I think this like cultural piece that you’re talking about.

And I also remember, back in 2015, I was. In charge of an Asian American racial justice organizing group. And I think that we’ve seen, there’s so many parallels. I think at that time, in the Asian American community, we were talking a lot about how there was this hard left swing amongst Asian Americans that used to be like half a generation prior, like really in like late nineties.

Like early two thousands, like the Asian American community was very split in a partisan way, right? And that, like in the Obama years, Asian Amer, it seemed that most Asian American communities had fully joined the sort of Democratic coalition. And there was a feeling I think at the time that like, even if demographics weren’t destiny, that like things were going in the right direction, right?

That like the coalition was gonna be real. But I think that looking especially on the past like looking back on the, especially the past five years and, the stuff that’s been happening, I, I would argue in some ways culturally because it’s like even like crime statistics don’t bear out the like way that people feel like they are in greater danger now than they ever have been.

But that like this cultural piece that informs our politics. Is so under tended and has been under tended. And that I think that, like what I hear you talking about is like the role of political homes for people is both developing a political consciousness and analysis amongst people, but also building a culture, right?

Like a culture of engagement with and asking questions about. Mainstream discourse that I think is really it’s really vital and really important. And I guess the other thread to pull on maybe is this thing about how like Trump also represents in a lot of ways, like a cultural shift for the Republican party and that part of the rupture that he created was. One that wasn’t necessarily just about policy, but it was about attitude. It was about like how they show up in certain spaces that I, I think that I would argue are building on a lot of what the sort of like right wing, think tank like media machine has been trying to do for past 40 years.

But that is a significant acceleration maybe. I just realized none of this is a question, but I’m, I’m curious. It’s all guys. We’re just, yeah. I’m, yeah. We’re just wrapping. I just wanna dig deeper into this cultural piece and the work of building a political home, especially like in this time when the internet has also changed the way that we are social with each other in such a profound way.

[00:22:50] Marisa Franco: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always struggled with inside of is should we be like going super mass, like there’s over 65 million Latinos in the United States. Obviously very diverse in all respects. Should we, trying to talk to them, should we? Trying to get at like the folks that are in the fight but disparate and scattered and don’t feel like they have a place where they can come back and take it, sit down and take all the change outta the pocket and figure out how do I keep going? Like political home for organizers and activists, or is it like going to the DC sort of political places and trying to influence Latinos fighting battles in those types of spaces?

And it, we’ve often just been in the middle one because it was like that’s where there’s actually people building organization, building base. And that’s felt like the most kinda like we needed. We need to build a foundation of people, like it’s a founding membership that understands this wasn’t a Latino project for the sake of, for the sake of, this sort of traditional idea of ascendants that I think in non-black, organizations of color has often been quietly anti-black because the story that we don’t say is in Latino community, how you make it is a piece of keep your head down and just work hard and work out and to distance yourself as much as possible from indigeneity and blackness.

And so we wanted to build a. We, we wanted to build a type of organization that didn’t subscribe to that notion. And then it didn’t just see itself as just for Latinos, but actually we’re trying to gather our people to show up to the broader thing with something to offer to the party.

And so that’s been hard, to figure out which way to go and, that is that’ll that will be something to reflect on. But in terms of the cultural subject you’re talking about, I don’t think that’s just a Latino question or a any it’s across the board and I would say broadly it is a heightened sense of alienation and loneliness and in, and the, and that’s more social and here, and then there’s like an economic, a downturn where I think people look around and they don’t necessarily think that.

Their future looks brighter or that who’s coming I don’t know what my kid’s gonna face. 

[00:25:10] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:25:10] Marisa Franco: And so the fact to me, the fact of the matter is that is true. People feel that. And Donald Trump’s campaign over the last, what, 12 years has been offering a story. As to why that is, who’s at fault and what am I gonna do to solve it?

And so he has sold people a bag of goods that ultimately says it’s an immigrant person who is making your rent high, who is making, who’s taking your job, who’s making you feel unsafe. And not the billionaire class. And I don’t know that. I think we could spend a lot of time talking about why is that or what, but I think the piece to underscore here is that I don’t think the Democratic Party has offered anything that remotely competes with the narrative of providing answers because they have been unwilling to.

Defy their donors and defy, yeah the parts of like the defense of capital and power and the status quo, they have been unwilling to do it. And so we’re literally sitting here analyzing why we all got our ass kicked and the democratic party can’t seem to bring itself to even look in the mirror a little bit to acknowledge that piece.

And instead have then doubled down on blaming Now, the woke or the this or the that. Yeah. Everybody has some soul searching and looking in the mirror, like no one’s gonna say that. But that cultural piece I think is huge. I think it’s huge, but it’s connected to something. It’s connected to a reality.

And, similar to the way that the inner circle of President Biden refused to acknowledge, there was millions of people like, eh, I’m not sure about this. They’re refusing to acknowledge that piece and refusing to acknowledge why is it that there was so many supporters of Bernie Sanders who then ended up being Trump supporters?

It’s ’cause they’re tired of the same shit and they wanna see something different and they’re willing to let things break. Now we’re seeing oh shit. Yeah, it’s really messed up. Oh shit, what are we gonna do? But that’s where people were at. And 

[00:27:13] Cayden Mak: Turns out there’s a degree of breaking that is actually just not acceptable to the majority of people.

[00:27:18] Marisa Franco: Yeah. But there’s something there where I just thought it was really fascinating where there was like this. The posture coming out of the Biden and the Harris campaign was this preservation of the status quo. And I just think they missed the memo that like, the status quo isn’t working for people.

And whether or not like I can accept that Marisa, you’re on the left and that’s not what people want. Fine but like you ain’t gonna tell me. That people are like, increasingly tired of things, just staying the same and are not really feeling the, like e for effort anymore.

And I think the Democratic brand has been one where people are like looking around, like they might not agree with everything Trump says, but. I think they believe him when he says he’s gonna do something and he’s gonna try. 

[00:28:06] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah. And I think 

[00:28:08] Marisa Franco: with the Democrats it’s I don’t know what you’re about and I don’t actually trust that you’re really gonna try, you’re just giving me a bag of goods that, once the election ends, you want everything to go back in cruise control.

[00:28:19] Cayden Mak: Sure. Yeah. I think that like it’s a, again, it’s like I keep saying things are funny and I don’t mean that they’re funny. Ha. But they’re funny, weird. That the part of the reason I think so many of the cracks are showing right now is the like front and center way in which Elon Musk in particular, but also like the tech billionaires generally have lined up around Trump in this administration versus the last one.

And that that is also, I think, pressing a button for some of the same people that you describe. And I’m curious if you’re like hearing this in like organizing conversations in your base if this is part of the calculus is like thinking about the way in which we live in a, in an oligarchy and we always have right?

That like a little bit of the distrust of the Democratic party is that they’re like the smiling face of the oligarchy as opposed to the violent cudgel of the oligarchy. 

[00:29:12] Marisa Franco: I, it, I remember like being like clocking that when Clinton ran against Trump. And it was like, how are people, like there was like this disdain that people had for Clinton, and Yes, some of it is, old fashioned misogyny.

[00:29:30] Cayden Mak: Yeah, definitely. But 

[00:29:32] Marisa Franco: like Trump is like a millionaire. By the time he was like five years old. So how come he’s, there was like this, like she was considered elite, but Trump wasn’t. 

[00:29:41] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:29:41] Marisa Franco: And I think there is a piece that’s just we gotta, keep it a buck. Like a lot of our people aspire to be rich.

They want to be successful, they want to feel like, they have resources. And so they see Trump as somebody, like there’s a way where they almost relate to Trump more in this strange way. More so than. Hillary Clinton. And I think when you look a little bit deeper, I think it’s this sort of, we know better than you, we know better than you.

We are better than you. We’re smarter than you. We say things the right way that I think, and there’s been this thing, I’m sure you’ve heard of this, of the education gap, that’s been talked about. And just like maybe perhaps like a level of resentment that grows from that where people feel like talked down to, looked down upon that I think they just really successfully latched onto.

And, in particular with men again. Hard to pull apart. Which part is just good old fashioned machi, bad old fashioned machismo, and what’s like some other stuff that’s going on for people. But yeah, I’m not sure. I don’t know. We’re just dering. Yeah, no, it’s 

[00:30:46] Cayden Mak: interesting because it is I think one of the, one of the through lines of a lot of conversations that we have on this show is the relationship between like culture and feeling, and then what kinds of political.

Action people are, like, regular people are willing to take. And how important that actually is to the work of blocking authoritarianism and building a movement and to win. Is that the, we also can’t wait for them to make the case for us, that we need to be pretty clear about what is on offer and that these things aren’t simple.

Okay. Yeah. Could you tell me a little bit about what what your work has looked like since inauguration day? Are there shifts that y’all have been making? What is it that y’all have been working on in this immediate period? 

[00:31:33] Marisa Franco: Yeah. So obviously, given our origin, given, yeah.

Given the origin of Mete immigration has been a key issue that we’ve worked on. They’re, immigrants are a huge part of our base, so we obviously saw the writing on the wall. So just in case, for some of your listeners that might not be immigration I think is really confusing.

It confuses me. And so a lot of my, my crew is sometimes I was like, what’s this again? So I’ll just do a little this is like. Big picture where it’s been, and then some of the Trump stuff. So obviously Trump ran on a, moved from build a wall to mass deportations, during Biden there was a lot of focus on the border and responding to asylum seekers, and what was happening at the border. Trump will double down on that. And essentially, for all intents and purposes and asylum as we know it. But then is that now going back in and doubling down on interior enforcement?

So you’re seeing that and inside of that a, an expansion of, like force multipliers. So when I speak in the next part about some of the like recent history of immigration enforcement, one of the things that they’re always trying to figure out is they have a finite number of. ICE agents, right?

And it’s definitely way less than the estimated number of folks in the country without status. And so they’re constantly trying to figure out ways to multiply capacity. And what Trump is doing is, and so historically that’s been done with police, local police has been a lot of organizing around that issue.

They’re now using, D-E-A-F-B-I. Now they’re trying to get National Guard, A-T-F-I-R-S agents. They just trying to get everybody and be like, y’all, let’s go. Looking to end all types of temporary status programs. So temporary protective status looking to end as much anything that gave people like different levels of relief, whether it was temporary or particular visas, they’re looking to expand attention dramatically.

Obviously people have heard about Guantanamo Bay, the use of military bases dust enough detention centers that hadn’t been used and building new ones. They’re looking to expand expedited removal, which means. They just deport people pretty immediately. And while you’ve seen in an international context where Trump has attempted to get people to bend the knee, I would say he’s Geoffrey if we’re using a game of throne reference.

But in terms of the, internationally, it’s like the threat of tariffs. Domestically, it’s the threat of cutting federal funding for everything. If you don’t do this, I’m cutting funding if you don’t. And so they’re trying to force state compliance and all different forms, not to mention all the eos that they’ve done, which I mean, there’s tons.

So I can share resources that folks want more information. But looking at it, taking a step back, we’re now going on almost 40 years since the last legalization in Congress, 40 years. Since the creation of DHS following September 11th, 2001, almost over $409 billion have been spent on immigration enforcement compared to 11 billion for immigration courts, IE coming the right way or doing it the right way.

Because such a huge gap in terms 

[00:35:02] Cayden Mak: of the 

[00:35:02] Marisa Franco: scale. And then we talk about like when people actually and this is gonna dramatically increase, if not double, triple so you’re looking at a federal budget that cuts everything and is like military immigration enforcement.

Police, justice department. And there has been a lot of talk about criminal, the criminalization, criminal who, what people have done. I think it’s important to say, to understand that the cadre of people working inside of the Trump administration, while they may be saying they’re going after criminals, the thing that we must understand is that for them all immigrants are criminal.

And they will not stop there. Anybody who is other is criminal to them. And so that’s why what’s happening to immigrants today is of, should be of concern to all of us because they’re not gonna stop there. It is simply that’s where they’re starting and that’s what they’re experimenting on, but best believe that is not where they’re gonna end.

That is not the end goal. All of that for us was like, you’re looking at. Pretty much everything. We’ve been able to win small things, right? Is being dismantled and you’re almost like 10, 15 years back with extra bad shit coming your way. So in a lot of ways I think we’re trying to.

Understand how it is that they’re working. A lot of our campaigns and advocacy and policy proposals over the last decade have come from studying and understanding how is it that immigration and customs enforcement is trying to identify arrests detained prosecute and deport our people. And so our task at hand now is to see how are they doing it now and what are the new policy handles to be able to try to slow them down and reduce harm.

We are still trying to figure that out because they’re literally undoing everything and then just, there’s a lot of new stuff that’s happening. Yeah. At a breakneck speed. So in the meantime, the other side of it is there’s what happens up until the point of arrest.

And then there’s post-arrest. Post-arrest is like the wild west. That’s where we know the least. 

That’s where we know, that’s where we’re trying to do our homework. So right now, prevention is our best hand. 

[00:37:16] Cayden Mak: Makes a lot sense to you. And so 

[00:37:16] Marisa Franco: that’s why you’ve seen, an organic sort of springing up of know your rights, organizing community defense all across the country. And that’s what we’ve leaned into in this time as a national organization. How do we support our our local crews that are doing this work face to face in communities, but then where are we filling gaps?

Where there’s not infrastructure? Where there’s not infrastructure? And so that means like it’s. Canvassing, it’s building new alliances from the bottom up with religious organizations, with schools, with local businesses. And you’re seeing real resistance, there’s stories of, from bus drivers to health officials.

Teachers local business folks local elected officials who are stepping out and, having this very organic, it’s making their, and at the end of the day, it just makes their job more difficult. So they’re like throwing the kitchen sink. And the more that we fight, the more that we resist.

The more that we buy ourselves time and more, we protect as many people as possible because once they get arrested, right now, they’re moving at breakneck speed. Yeah. So prevention and community defense that I think can be used for other forms of mutual aid totally is the name of the game right now.

[00:38:33] Cayden Mak: Yeah. Yeah that, that makes a lot of sense to me in terms of a here are the points of intervention that are available. And also I think that, like there is, it does also seem like there’s something like deeply advantageous about being able also then to have those things be visible in the community wherever you are.

That knowing that there are people out there who are like ready to, be in the way basically is like something that, that I’m sure is like helping other people see where they might be able to be useful. Which feels big. In terms of the one of the things that I think about a lot and that ’cause I’m also somebody who I just can’t stop thinking about the internet and big tech and like what we have done.

But the. I’m curious about this piece, about how, with so much of what the Trump administration is doing in terms of dismantling systems and the way that they’ve worked, and it seem, it seems like a lot of that is now being like out, basically outsourced to big business.

Are there, do you see, are there any emerging levers around that kind of stuff that you guys are keeping track of? And I think I. Y obviously a lot of people are going after Elon Musk and are really mad for good reason about that. And going, even staging protests like at Tesla dealerships, which I think is hilarious, frankly that he has like such a large sort of like.

He’s such a vulnerability to the public because he’s, his businesses are so public. But are there things like that, that y’all are thinking about and the kinds of businesses that are making it possible for the Trump administration to, to dismantle the way things have been.

[00:40:10] Marisa Franco: Yeah, I would be remiss not to shout out Cinta Gonzalez, who has led this work at Hanta for many years. So the No Tech Fries campaign has been a campaign that, has had different sort of chapters and targets starting with Palantir which is a corporate target we campaigned against for years.

But, when we talk about force multiplication, I. There is the deployment or sort of the entanglement with local police. Now federal law enforcement agencies, but data and technology is the other way that it’s happened. So that’s how the no tech fries came campaign came to be.

’cause doing deportation defense, one of the things you’re trying to learn is how is it that this person got picked up and early on? What we were seeing is that they were being identified. Through search engines, through like contracts with private technology companies, data companies, then eventually going onto data brokers.

And so that’s been a lot of the research’s been happening. And so I think, and like just as like you have followed the tech industry, like you, it’s a trip to think of Elon Musk. And where he was politically four years ago. Yeah. But the signs are there. The seeds are there inside of like the tech industry and like the tech barons and how they see themselves.

It’s not super, it’s like shocking but not surprising, in terms of how the tech sector and. Leaders of that sector are falling. There’s, you have to there’s Elon Musk, but like the OG here is Peter Thiel. Oh yeah. In terms of like Absolutely.

But one thing I think we’re really interested, I can share resources of some of the research, but it’s looking at the local level and what kind of contracts localities have with different private tech and data companies. So we’ve been doing a lot of research on LexiNexis. And are looking at, there’s like the traditional form of sanctuary that is obviously being talked about a lot, but, thinking about digital sanctuary and what kind of. Trying to intervene on what data is collected and shared and really targeting at the local level and looking at that side of things again, to create these barriers and sort of speed bumps for the massive multiplication of capacity to identify. Seek out arrest, detain immigrants.

And so the digital sanctuary piece I think is like the newest component. And so I can share some of the research and reports that we’ve been generating around that. 

[00:42:45] Cayden Mak: That’s great. Yeah I’m sure our listeners would be interested in learning more about that. ’cause I think that it’s I don’t know, I, it, part of it is obviously it’s my personal acts to grind as but part of it is also, I just think that as a left, we need to be developing some real good analysis about what is going on in this industry and why they’ve become so powerful. And as, and I think rightly, as you say, a lot of it is like a lot of this like public private partnership stuff where they’re like kind of inserting themselves into law enforcement and local government and it’s. It’s chilling. I actually had a, I had a it’s a memory of talking about digital sanctuary with you. Like literally 10 years ago, I think just popped into my brain. It was just like, oh, I feel like we’ve been talking about this for a while.

It’s unfortunate that it’s coming back in this particular context, but, it, yeah, it’s, that feels really important. The other thing I did wanna ask you about is one of the, when we’re also thinking about. The sort of like culture and origins of the authoritarian movement that we’re up against is climate change, and the like, impact that climate change has on both I’m also the child of immigrants are the places that our families are from. And then also I think like when we think about the uneven effects of climate change on like working class people of color. In this country and like the things that are happening here and how do you all orient and are like, is this part of the conversation that you’re having also as we’re like preparing for really the long haul of the next four years, the, this is gonna be part of, an intensifying experience that all of us have, right? Like regardless of race or class. But then also like the ways that it has, it is shaping I guess like our collective vulnerability also to people like Donald Trump. 

[00:44:29] Marisa Franco: Yeah, I think we can understand climate change is one of the most, the sort of new kid on the block of push factors to migration.

A good who is part of the North Carolina team, which shout out to them, they’ve Yeah. Released this really dope guide called Defending the Crew. On some of these community defense tactics. But one of the things she told me years ago that I always hold onto is that one of the greatest, the, one of the greatest protests of to global imperialism is mass migration.

[00:45:00] Sound on Tape: And, 

[00:45:02] Marisa Franco: And, I think about that and then it’s can we do a subpoint that’s like the perils, like the sort of the consequence of imperialism and the climate catastrophe that it’s creating. And late stage capitalism. Because I think what’s scary about this moment is you feeling like there’s this visceral, like scarcity and fear setting in inside of the United States where people are very much what’s mine? What do I have? What do I get? I don’t want to be, there is this sort of. Of this kind of it or it’s tightening. I don’t know that there was ever this like abundance, like generosity out of the mass American public, but there is this kind of constriction and an isolation that’s taking hold catalyzed by the red rhetoric of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

That’s coming with millions of people will have to leave where they live because it’s not livable there anymore. Yeah. And in addition to then the ongoing like economic pressures and that sort of consequence of, the way that, that so much of the world has been subjected to the bullshit of, global capitalism now neoliberalism now turning into some other nasty thing that I don’t know that there’s a name for it yet.

And so it feels like a train wreck because it’s like people are going to, and like anybody would, anybody, yeah. Any of us would. And so it is really scary. You’ve seen horrible images at the border, and I don’t, and so yes, it’s part of our it’s part of the narrative and the story of what we understand, assessment and what’s happening.

I also think it’s important to say that there’s also just. The manifestation of climate catastrophe in the United States most recently with the LA fires. So I think something really dope and interesting to look at is what the National Day Labor Organizing Network did with the Mutual Aid Center and operations they created out of the PAs Pasadena Job Center.

But they’re really like positing that like immigrants will and will, and you cannot rebuild Los Angeles. Without immigrant labor and the participation of immigrant people in the community. And so I think there’s just stuff there because it’s it’s obviously happening across the globe That is going to be a major push factor, and I think we’ll continue to.

Kind of create these points of tension and crisis, but then internally to the United States. I think that example is like a really a beacon I think of one example of how to talk about and how to respond in a way that is like a solve. To the feeling of. Isolation and sort of terror and like the scarcity and constriction that’s making people turn to a really shitty part of ourselves, right?

In terms of the politics of now. So I think that’s an important example. But yeah I think it’s gonna continue to be a huge factor. 

[00:47:55] Cayden Mak: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Finally, I feel like I’d be remiss to a to ask, to not ask you what is it that’s keeping you going these days? Is there anything that you’re like, what keeps you fired up?

[00:48:08] Marisa Franco: I think political home. I think I think I used to say study. 

So I do think that study is still important and being like. Committed to revolutionary history, revolutionary practice, which I think in the end for me has been like not getting too bought into any which way about stuff, but to be able to understand myself as part of a lineage and trying to that’s historically been the case, but I think more and more as time goes on, I think it’s true.

It’s like the relationships, the people that I’ve had the honor to work with at Hanta in particular, but even before I think are, yeah, I think the possibility of things that we can do together and both the support and accountability, I think is a big part of it.

But for sure it’s definitely really trying times and difficult times and I think it’s important to just say we can talk about the Republican party, the Democratic Party, and what’s good, what’s not good, what’s this and what’s that? But I do think there is like just a recognition that part of the danger of this moment is that the old orders are dying.

[00:49:17] Sound on Tape: Yeah. 

[00:49:18] Marisa Franco: And there isn’t necessarily like a left alternative that is clear and that, that compensates and acknowledges the mistakes of the past. I think that’s actually really important. That is like rooted in kind of what’s needed in a worldview and a vision. And I think basically need to be able to make sense to people and the people can see a future for themselves and not just like pretty language and theory from books.

And I don’t know how that gets answered beyond just continuing to walk and continuing to acknowledge that is a question and remind, and I remind myself of this I might be able to, critique and talk shit about what I think is not going good and here and there, but it’s also what you gonna do?

Yeah. What, what are, what answers are we, what propositions are we developing by walking, by just continuing to move. I don’t know any other way, but I think it’s important to acknowledge it that there is this really significant question. I don’t think it’s just in the United States.

I think it’s global. And so that’s why it’s also so hard. And so I think the fact that we’re still here, trying, I think speaks a lot. But I think there’s, that’s the challenge to us all. 

[00:50:29] Cayden Mak: Yeah. No I feel that deeply. I think it’s it’s honestly one of the joys of being able to have folks like you on this show and like really dig deep on some of these things that are both, we’re thinking about the present, but we’re also thinking about the longer arc of history that we’re a part of.

It’s really important. Yeah. Thank you so much. Cool. Is there anything else? Yeah, is there anything else you wanna leave our listeners with? Any calls to action? Any other stuff that folks should be aware of? 

[00:50:55] Marisa Franco: Yeah, just follow me. We’re gonna be fanning out doing trainings and like holding like circles of folks, in practice to figure out how we yeah.

How we like master, like really understand what they’re doing to try to slow their asses down. And I know this is the black and build, but like the contrast is another framework that I think is very complimentary to black and build. So we can share that video. I think the sort of outside of the state work right now is gonna be really important.

We didn’t get as much into it, but. So much of the pathways we’ve traditionally understand to be able to make change are, they’ve turned into obstacle courses and not pathways. And so outside of the state, autonomous projects that are looking to solve problems for, for all of us, I think are gonna be really critical.

So can share that video in case folks are interested. And there’s a lot of groups we’ve been able to work with that I think are worth like supporting and connecting to. 

[00:51:49] Cayden Mak: Fantastic. Thank you again so much. It’s always a delight to talk to you. 

[00:51:53] Marisa Franco: Likewise. 

[00:51:55] Cayden Mak: Excellent. My thanks again to Sarah Lazar and also Marisa Franco for joining me today.

We’ll link to the relevant work in the show notes. You’ll have access to all that stuff. This show is published by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. I’m Kaden Mock, and our producer is Josh Stro. Kimmy David is our production assistant. If you have something to say or a question about anything we talked about today, please do drop me a line.

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