The Process is the Punishment: Cop City and the ATL 61

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:00] Cayden Mak: Welcome to Block and Build, a podcast from Convergence magazine. I’m your host and the publisher of Convergence, Caden Mock. On this show, we’re building a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of rising authoritarianism, while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win.

[00:00:25] Before we get started, I want to invite you to join our subscriber program. Convergence Magazine is an independent publication that relies on the generosity of our readers and listeners to create the rigorous, thoughtful takes you’ve come to expect from us, week in and week out. You can become a subscriber at convergencemag.

[00:00:40] com slash donate. Any amount helps, either as a one time donation or a recurring monthly or annual subscription. If you don’t have the cash, another way you can help support the show is by rating and reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps boost the show and strengthens the ability of their algorithms to surface it to other like minded listeners so we can expand our community of practice.

[00:01:01] I’m traveling this week and next week, so we will not be broadcasting live shows on Fridays. That doesn’t mean we’re not going to publish to the podcast feed. While I’m out, we’ve put together some feed drops featuring timely movement media from other journalists and outlets for you that we think tackle some big picture issues that might be getting lost in the flood of viral headlines.

[00:01:21] I’ll be back on February 21st with an all new episode. You can get alerted about that broadcast by going to our YouTube page and subscribing and clicking on that alert button to get a reminder. Last week, I talked to Asia Arnold and Tasi Chargwilaf about their new podcast, The Processes of the Punishment, documenting the struggle of the ATL 61, who were indicted under Georgia’s RICO Act last August for their protest against the controversial police training facility you’ve likely heard of, known as Cop City.

[00:01:48] These interviews have been compiled as part of a podcast miniseries recently launched on their Patreon and Substack, with the first episode available for subscribers at the time of this recor Here’s a Quick preview of that first episode.

[00:02:08] Sound on Tape: It was a dragnet arrest from the start. At the time, my mindset was, well, I didn’t do anything wrong, so I won’t have to face any consequences for what other people might have done. People don’t usually understand in a real material way what it means. to go to jail or have felony charges or have someone you love going through these things or how hard it is.

[00:02:39] The state wants to send a message that anybody who does anything related to opposing cop city is potentially a target. This is the new five year plan for capitalism. Like they want to build these cop cities so that they can start to continue to fill these prisons and jails and detention centers. And if we don’t fight this now, we’re going to see that the only gross domestic product that the United States creates is enslaved people inside of these locked up institutions.

[00:03:17] On August 

[00:03:18] Tåsi Chargualaf: 29th, 2023, the Georgia attorney general’s office filed a massive RICO indictment for 61 people in the stop cop city movement. It’s considered one of the largest criminalization sweeps for a political movement in the history of the United States. I’m Tasi Chargalloff, producer of the Mainline podcast.

[00:03:41] In this special three part investigative series, we dive into the story of the ATL 61, with interviews between Mainline journalist Asia Arnold and five of the 61 defendants, as well as attorneys working on the case. Drawing from personal anecdotes, expert legal opinions, and critical historical analysis, We weave the defendant’s stories into a greater cultural perspective and explain why Georgia’s repressive past informs our current political predicament and what this historic case means for the future of social justice movements in the United States.

[00:04:15] Cayden Mak: The podcast is called The Process is the Punishment and you can subscribe to Mainline on Patreon or Substack to hear that full episode and the rest of the series as it publishes in the coming weeks. Joining me now to discuss the series and the implications of Cop City and these RICO charges for our broader movement struggles are Mainline’s founder and publisher Asia Arnold and podcast producer Tasi Chagrila.

[00:04:35] Asia, thank you so much for joining me today. 

[00:04:37] Aja Arnold: Hi, thank you so much for having me, Caden. 

[00:04:39] Cayden Mak: And Tasi, thanks for joining us as well. 

[00:04:42] Aja Arnold: Hi, thanks 

[00:04:42] Tåsi Chargualaf: for having us. 

[00:04:43] Cayden Mak: Awesome. To get us started, Asia, can you bring us up to speed on what Cop City is for any of our listeners who might not be so familiar, and what is the current state of the project?

[00:04:54] Aja Arnold: Sure COP City is a proposed, it’s now being built it’s a proposed police militarization industrial site or a police training center, or as the City of Atlanta and the police like to call it, a public safety training center. by the Atlanta Police Department that is bankrolled by the Atlanta Police Foundation.

[00:05:16] It was authorized in a ground lease agreement in September of 2021 by the Atlanta City Council after record breaking public dissent in the form of public comments and other and protests. It was voted through in a vote in Atlanta City Council that September. And I actually describe it as a land grab because the the acreage is over 350 acres and the total cost for the APF to lease this land from the city of Atlanta is 500.

[00:05:47] That’s 10 a year for 50 years. That’s wild. Yeah, and after the escalation in Palestine in 2023, we at Mainline Editorial began to actually view Cop City as an occupation in the Wailani. Or South River Forest, but we can get more into that, but those are the basic details of Cop City as it is being built in Atlanta.

[00:06:11] Cayden Mak: Yeah, and as you mentioned, it is being built in this forest land. What’s the story on this, on the parkland that’s, they’re proposing to build it in, or I guess now building it in, and how did that come to be? 

[00:06:24] Aja Arnold: So that particular part of land in Atlanta has a long history that includes previously being a prison farm called the Atlanta Prison Farm, which was discontinued and closed in the 1990s.

[00:06:38] Since then, the place the space has been used as a dumping ground. By the city I did a tour of the land in 2021 with a man named Scott Peterson, who had a long campaign before Cop City called Save the Atlanta Prison Farm. He is no longer with us. He has since passed, but he was very educated.

[00:06:59] On the history, but we would walk by, remnants of old library, like an old library in the city where they just dumped columns. There were a lot of tear gas canisters. There were studies we had an ecologist who wrote for mainline that year about the chemical. Intake on the land, like the chemical impact that was already there.

[00:07:19] And of course, the land was originally inhabited by the Muscogee Creek tribe before their forced removal in the 1830s, notably with the Trail of Tears. So this land has a long history of being disregarded and uncared for. There’s a lot of trauma, generational trauma on the land, and it’s being repurposed by the Atlanta Police Foundation and the city to build upon that.

[00:07:42] And to escalate that. history into our present day and future. And also, lastly, I wanted to say the neighboring land is the Entrenchment Creek Park, which is public land, which is where Tortuguita was violently killed by the police during an illegal raid that occurred on January 18, 2023. All of this is in DeKalb County, South Atlanta, a predominantly black, low income neighborhood.

[00:08:11] Cayden Mak: Thank you so much for that background. Well, let’s talk a little bit about the movement to stop cop city, because the podcast series is really focusing on the charges that grew out of that. But you mentioned that in 2021, when the land lease agreement came to the city council, there was like a huge amount of public outcry, but the agreement went through council, right?

[00:08:33] So what happened next? How did organizers respond to. That happening in city council and was the nature of the protest movement that grew out of that for folks who don’t know. 

[00:08:44] Aja Arnold: The response I think was an element of Not being surprised but still shots like I said in a recent interview the surprising element for me and Reporting on this all this time as an atlantan and someone that lives here the level of commitment that the city of atlanta and the state has had to protecting this land grab from happening has been very stunning because it was very widespread opposition.

[00:09:11] I just want listeners to understand in the early days in 2021 before the vote passed, there were like small businesses, multiple business associations across the spectrum, political spectrum of political ideologies that joined together over Forty different groups came together in this widespread coalition to say that they didn’t want it.

[00:09:31] And then another thing is that DeKalb County residents don’t actually have representation in Atlanta city council due to the redlining and the districting. So it’s been anti democratic from the start. And the response after it was voted was I wrote a piece for the appeal that was co published with Mainline in December, 2021.

[00:09:53] And my main argument, in that, in my claim in that article was that the movement didn’t cease, it simply evolved. And I think that’s what’s happening now, since it’s slated to open sometime this year the movement has simply evolved and it evolved to More political dissent, more coalition building, and then, of course, after Tortuguita was killed by the police that effort went, was catapulted from being, like, pretty hyper localized and somewhat regional to international, global, overnight and we saw that reflected in media coverage.

[00:10:29] Tossie, do you want to add anything to the movement’s growth? 

[00:10:36] Tåsi Chargualaf: I actually just got caught up in you recounting the event because it just, it took me back to that year and just how I was at Tortuguita’s memorial. One of the memorials that they held in little five points for Tortuguita after they were murdered.

[00:10:50] And It was a very, it was a very emotional time for the movement and it was also it was, it did have a chilling effect on the actual protests that happened just because people, the stakes were literally life and death at that point, and I think that what Asia said about the movement evolving is 100 percent accurate, is people had to take their strategies out of the streets and into, one on one meetings into more coalition building.

[00:11:21] And I think that it’s easy to look at the lack of protests happening and say, oh, well, there, it’s not an active movement anymore. But it’s also easy to remember that the mainstream media isn’t necessarily covering our coalition building and our one on one meetings. And it benefits. It’s a lot of media outlets to make it seem like there’s nothing happening behind the scenes when in reality it’s people are working really hard and trying to keep this from moving forward still.

[00:11:50] Cayden Mak: Yeah. I, that seems like a really important point that like the sort of like difficult work of organizing is often not what makes headlines even in, the things that grab people’s attention. who are not already paying attention, are not usually the that deep coalition building work.

[00:12:07] I also want to turn to this question of the RICO charges. And, this is obviously what the podcast series, the process of the, is the punishment is about. Asia, could you talk a little bit about what’s so alarming about this many protesters being indicted under RICO charges? And, also whowhy is it strange that this many people should be indicted under RICO charges?

[00:12:30] Aja Arnold: Well, for one, this is one of the largest sweeping RICO indictments in history. It isI know you say things are unprecedented, but this That particular indictment is relatively indictment. And it’s interesting that it’s not, it’s one of the three sweeping indictments that came out around the same time.

[00:12:45] Like we saw the Trump, RICO cases that were also tried in Fulton County. And then we saw the YSL, which was like one of the longest running trials. Actually, the still ongoing Atlanta public school teacher RICO trials are still ongoing. That is actually the longest running trial in Georgia history.

[00:13:04] It’s often miscited and misreported saying YSL was, but the Georgia Atlanta public school teachers like God bless those women and like teachers who were criminalized. So The alarming nature of the South Crop City of Ricoh, so it’s hard for me to label it as alarming because it goes back into kind of this element of, or the sensation of, this is shocking, although not fully surprising there was a bit of a rumor mill happening that the state was preparing a, an indictment that was confirmed to be true when it was announced in August of 2023 61 people is an alarming number and that Not that many people have been tried in one indictment at once like that before to my knowledge and To clarify this isn’t being tried by the Fulton County District Attorney Fonny Willis who does seem to have like a fetishization with Rico But this is actually the Georgia Attorney General’s office that is trying it in Fulton County It’s coming from the state then it’s being tried in Fulton County, which I think is a strategic jurisdiction Dickson Choice, DeKalb County District Attorney Sherry Boston said that she actually did not want to participate in the domestic terrorism charges.

[00:14:22] So one thing that is important, maybe mildly confusing, is that of the 61 RICO defendants, 42 of them were previously charged and arrested with domestic terrorism. 23, a subset of that 42 is 23 that were only arrested during the South River Music Festival on March 5th, 2023, and we have at least one defendant, actually two defendants in our podcast series that were at that music festival.

[00:14:51] Those 23 were all out of towners, the police Did an indiscriminate dragnet style arrest where they apprehended dozens of people, but held on to 23 out of towners. They separated locals from out of towners and then said it was an outside agitator narrative. So, I think again, just going back to the alarming element to your question of this particular case is that The level of commitment that the state has to ensuring that people do not dissent Cop City here or anywhere else is alarming because they are willing to spend exponential time and resources, like if you consider 61 people, the Fulton and DeKalb County jails in Atlanta are already so overcrowded.

[00:15:41] Judges are already overbooked. So this has affected the court system, the incarceration system. You think about 61 people. They all have defense attorneys, but their defense attorneys have co counsel. All the defendants have support crews. So all this on the ground organizing had to evolve to organizing to support 61 people.

[00:16:07] And that was the goal, in my theory, of the state. They’re not in it to secure convictions. It’s been alarming to watch how sloppy. And ineffective, the prosecution actually has been John Fowler might hear me say that, but I just think it’s subjectively true and he doesn’t have, he doesn’t like a lot of what I say, but I think it’s true I’m just observing, I’m like, wow, it seems like they don’t even, are trying to successfully convict, it seems 

[00:16:32] Cayden Mak: yeah. Well, I wonder if this also gets a little back to Tasi’s point about the way that Stop Cop City is out of the mainstream media and like the sort of media moment around Tortuguita’s murder past, and that in some ways, one of the things that I’m hearing you say is that in a lot of ways, using re using the RICO law, In this case is a way of, again, like furthering that narrative about domestic terror, right?

[00:17:01] That that’s like a piece of the puzzle. And that I wonder, maybe Tasi, you have a thought about this is how that impacts the way that the case is perceived. 

[00:17:13] Tåsi Chargualaf: I think definitely the decision to Indict on Rico charges for the 61 defendants was an optics move on the part of the state.

[00:17:23] I think that it definitely had It had the purpose of, when we talk about the process as a punishment, that, that’s a phrase that Asia came up with, and I think it, it’s just, it really, it sounds sticky in your brain, it’s they don’t have to convict you in order to ruin your life, they just have to, they just have to charge you, and that’s how our, that’s how our justice system works, and when you do this to 61 people at the same time, everyone has to rearrange and maneuver and change.

[00:17:55] Reassess what their priorities are to support the people that have been arrested, so you’re taking more energy and resources and manpower away from the central issue, which is to stop the cop city from being built. So, I think it was in the state’s mind, in the state’s reasoning, I think that makes sense to them.

[00:18:18] But I think the fallout of that in the public eye is glamorizing it a little bit, and making it actually more accessible for people to jump on board. Because as we’ve seen with the YSL trials, and the Trump trials for the Rigo cases. I, there is an element of glamour and kind of mystery and intrigue about it that is appealing to the public.

[00:18:41] So I think that there was a little bit of backlash from that, for sure. Interesting. 

[00:18:45] Cayden Mak: Yeah. 

[00:18:46] I 

[00:18:46] Aja Arnold: want to clarify something really quick too. The process as the punishment is actually coined by Malcolm M. Feely, who’s a professor of law. At University of California, but he wrote a book called The Processes of Punishment that came out in the 90s, but one of our interviewees and one of the defendants, Marlon Kautz, said it, and Marlon is one of the ASF 3, the Atlanta Solidarity Fund 3, that were in addition to the RICO were charged with money laundering and charity fraud, the money laundering charges have been dropped by the Attorney General they were dropped last year But I, when he said that, it was like, and it actually just kept coming up in conversations in the spirit of underlining yeah I see it now.

[00:19:29] The process is the punishment. Like here, it’s the process of being arraigned and more on the domestic terrorism charges, because Caden, you mentioned that loosely before when you were loading the question, but Yeah, I think that my analysis my take is that, they couldn’t justify these domestic terrorism charges so they cast a wider net and RICO, I think a lot of prosecutors see a lot of value in RICO I have seen an internal presentation that was given by a prosecuting a Georgia prosecuting attorney office organization that would show prosecutors It was called like Rico one on one and one on one and it was like, why you should use Rico?

[00:20:10] Like the benefits of using Rico. And it says and I had, there’s a screenshot of Tobey Maguire and Spider Man and it was like, but with great power comes great responsibility. 

[00:20:20] Tåsi Chargualaf: So here’s his power. Here’s his power. Yeah. Here’s his power. Take it, but use it responsibly or else I think they 

[00:20:28] Aja Arnold: justify.

[00:20:29] And then the district attorney in DeKalb saying she wouldn’t roll with it. I just think that they couldn’t justify these DT charges that began in December 2022, weeks before the raid that took Tortuguitza’s life. And I think that’s a motivator for this, like Rico is just well, we’re going to cast a wider net and claim that.

[00:20:50] They’re a criminal enterprise, and the things in the indictment, they also claimed, this all started in 2020 during the George Floyd protests, which is sure. And there’s factual errors in the indictment and all these. And petty transaction financial transactions, like $11 on Venmo or so. Yeah.

[00:21:10] Cayden Mak: Yeah. It’s like somebody getting paid back for a slice of pizza or something. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:21:15] Aja Arnold: If it didn’t have all these real life repercussions that, traumatize like dozens of people, i. e. via going through, being in DeKalb County Jail, which is like really known for horrendous inhumane conditions it would be laughable but unfortunately, indictments are relatively not that hard to get.

[00:21:37] So, 

[00:21:38] Cayden Mak: yeah, well, speaking of that trauma based on the coverage you all have been doing, how are folks holding up? How are the Atlanta 61 holding up under this like immense pressure and legal overreach? 

[00:21:51] Aja Arnold: I were not in touch with all of the 61. I do know more defendants than I have been in touch with more defendants than the five that we interviewed.

[00:22:01] And I think that there is For one, the five defendants that we interviewed are grateful that their story is out, that this series is being rolled out. Not every defendant wants to be in the media, but some do because they want to counter mainstream narratives and they’ve been painted as being extremists and domestic terrorists and they’re not.

[00:22:24] So they want to speak up for themselves safely with their attorneys. And we had a very good, thoughtful process to keep them safe and doing a media appearance that wouldn’t jeopardize, wouldn’t blow back on them in any way. And. But as outside of that, what I’m picking up on, at least here in Atlanta, is that, the ASF money laundering charges being dropped and the Attorney General could re present those, I think we’re just Seeing that, I think there’s an uptick and some hope of yeah, this indictment is not going to be successful they’re not going to get convictions we’ll see if a trial date happened if we get one, there’s a new judge coming, so I think there is we’re getting a new judge because, or yeah, they’re getting a new judge because Judge Kimberly Adams is going to family court, so Judge Kevin Farmer will be the new presiding judge on this case, but, yeah, We’ll see what happens.

[00:23:16] The future is uncertain, but I think there is like a groundswell of hopefulness and at least the, like people that I, interact with through my work and stay in touch with, I think people are just ready for this to like end, God, let’s get this trial and feeling like, yeah Hey.

[00:23:34] Felt can we like show us your cards like just put it on the table the prosecution with so many discovery deadlines Like it’s been lagging so long a lot because of the prosecution not being prepared So 

[00:23:48] Tåsi Chargualaf: yeah, I also think that there has been a there has been a reinvigorating effect Around the country for the issues around cop city and what it means for other cities to have plans in the works to make their own cop cities because of the California wildfires and because of the environmental impacts of all these proposed cop cities and the incarcerated people that will Eventually end up being, incarcerated workers that and I think there is renewed interest in it.

[00:24:23] So I don’t think it’s in the interest of the state to keep this going because the longer it keeps going and the more ecological disasters we have and the more people are aware of the the breadth of slave labor in this country I think that’s not beneficial to the state to have that constantly percolating in people’s minds.

[00:24:45] Cayden Mak: That makes sense. And I 

[00:24:46] Aja Arnold: will say that I, one, one last thing I wanna say is that Sure. Like one of the main arguments coming from defense attorneys, like I’ve read so many of the motions that the pretrial motions, but there’s some serious constitutional like violations happening here, notably of the First Amendment.

[00:25:03] There’s other, there’s like fourth Amendment, sixth Amendment, but there’s also and I think you, none of them are the inhuman conditions in jail, perhaps eighth amendment, but I have seen in motions. One, a four, a six, a so but the first amendment, it’s interesting that they’re even doing this because it’s like most judges, no matter their party lines, a lot of what I’ve seen, it’s they’re not willing to violate the first amendment for better or for worse.

[00:25:28] Like it goes both ways, but like one of the attorneys, Don Samuel, who represents the ASF three is saying if the people can’t criticize the government, like that’s like our founders. Yeah. Did or why we’re here like he’s appealing to almost as conservative Nature and like he wrote it, but he wrote this like motion to quash the indictment Like, and just argue that the indictment is fundamentally flawed.

[00:25:54] So I just wanted to name that. To try to step on the First Amendment in this way, I think of course people on the left that are prescribed anarchism, that’s also a shared sentiment across political lines, so I, another reason why I just don’t see this going well. 

[00:26:10] Cayden Mak: Totally. Let’s talk a little bit about how the process of the punishment came together as an audio story.

[00:26:17] What made you want to make this an audio series and like, how did it start as an outgrowth of your reporting? 

[00:26:26] Aja Arnold: Tossie, do you remember? Do you want to start? 

[00:26:30] I will say that when we started talking about this project, I think, Asia, you were already in the process of interviewing some of the defendants, right?

[00:26:39] Or You had decided that you wanted to interview some of the defendants and then we were brainstorming about where this would go and connecting it to a larger project as opposed to just several pieces that we had put out. And at that point, I think I was doing some podcast work for Mainline.

[00:26:58] So it seemed like a natural kind of progression to make it, an actual series. And I am a huge podcast fan. And I listened to. Podcasts all day, every day. And I really loved the idea of just using that medium to tell a really powerful story. That was true, and I think that, that’s where it really resonated for me, was that these are real people in our city.

[00:27:23] Some of which I have met. I haven’t spoken to any of them personally since the RICO indictment, but I would see these people out at protests. I would see them. In the community. So for me, it felt like a really good way of supporting people that were affected in the community and also providing journalistic value.

[00:27:42] And I’m not a journalist myself, but working with journalists has been, like, incredibly invigorating. So, yeah, I think. I think that’s it. 

[00:27:52] Aja Arnold: Yeah, and I was, I’m like, Tassie, you are a bit of a journalist, I will say, but, well, Citizen journalist. Yeah, I’ve been surprised by the number of predominantly male people that follow Mainline that suddenly become journalist experts when they don’t like what we’re saying.

[00:28:09] And then Tossie’s I’m not a journalist. I’m like, but you are in a way. So, very amazing. So yeah. Tossie and sorry to blow some smoke, but towards your direction, I’ve just gassed you up, but yeah, you got an excellent media worker, cultural worker in the form of like audio journalism in particular.

[00:28:27] Yeah I personally, audio journalism is my favorite medium. I’ve spent a lot of time doing written reporting and I have spent a good portion of my, eight to nine year career doing a lot of writing, but I love, I’m a musician. I just, I love sound and turn and in regards to myself I have a bit of a learning difference.

[00:28:45] Like I just like process information through audio much more and video more than I do through like. So I wanted to produce something I wanted to work with Tossie because we hadn’t met and I just Felt really aligned with Tassi and like her understanding. And one of my favorite definitions of journalism journalists that was handed down to me by a professor in J School was journalists make sense of the world around us.

[00:29:09] That’s our role, that’s our service. And for me, you can’t make sense. Over time as I went through the journalists to organize our pipeline and became more and more. Unravel, just like decolonizing my thinking, basically I realized that you can’t make sense of what’s happening in the world today without, critically acknowledging and analyzing indigenous, like indigenous genocide and colonization of Turtle Island and rape culture as well, genocide and mass incarceration, slavery, policing you can’t make sense of any of it without that.

[00:29:43] And Tossie, yeah. Like just gets that so that’s like our theory of chain or one of our biggest principles at mainline and Also knowing I think that it’s serious like this is just more intimate I wanted to humanize the defendants because seeing like the mainstream coverage coming out and written Articles I think just don’t really do it justice if you can’t hear people’s voice the way they react It’s like when we ask them like my opening question with defendants was just like Where were you when you found out that you were indicted on Rico?

[00:30:15] Who, how did you like, learn about that? I want to hear them tell it. It’s just such a human moment. And the element of frankly, confusion, because when you’re not part of a criminal enterprise, you probably don’t expect to be indicted for being part of one. So you’re probably like, I just want to go be in the forest or go to this music festival.

[00:30:36] And So, I think that, and then also to feature Often, who is the music featured who did the music featured, Often, we licensed, the songs to use just to further even humanize and personalize the story for listeners or motivators for the series. 

[00:31:00] Cayden Mak: Awesome. Yeah, there is something like, I think really effective about just talking like getting the sort of texture of a human response that you can get an audio that just can’t get any other way.

[00:31:11] It’s why I’ve enjoyed doing a podcast. So it’s like really getting going deep with folks. 

[00:31:17] Tåsi Chargualaf: Yeah, I think that’s why we did the intro. The way we did it is because that blend of, this beautiful music underneath this, tempestual, narrative. And it really, when I listened back to the intro, I listened to it, I listened to it over and over again in production.

[00:31:35] And I was like, it is so powerful to hear the voices of the people this is happening to as opposed to either just me and Asia first. And because it really is in their own words and we all I was really doing on the voice acting side and and the back end was providing context to these stories and it’s, I’m really excited to see how people react to it and what resonates with people the most, because we really did have the listeners in mind when we made it.

[00:32:03] Aja Arnold: Yeah, and I sent Tassie, I remember last thing is I just remember sending you like a podcast that I was inspired by called The 13th Step. I was like, I would love to do something like this and like 13th Step, totally different topic. It’s about, rape culture and abuse and Alcoholics Anonymous communities.

[00:32:22] And I’m a member of that. I’m a sober person. That’s anyway, I just, it was fascinating to listen to you. But it was such a The way it was curated and tailored to hear like women telling their story and in such a principled, quality, ethical, journalistic way that was investigative, really spoke to me and it, and I was, that was just like a huge inspiration to, I remember sending that to Tassie being like, like this.

[00:32:51] And so, yeah. 

[00:32:53] Tåsi Chargualaf: Yeah. And I ate up that whole series. It was really good. 

[00:32:56] Cayden Mak: Awesome. I haven’t listened to that. I’m going to have to go check it out. 

[00:32:58] Tåsi Chargualaf: It’s fascinating. I 

[00:33:00] Cayden Mak: think that there, there’s another thing that occurs to me, occurred to me that as y’all are talking is that I think as we are looking at cop cities being proposed across the country, including one in my own backyard here in the Bay, I think that.

[00:33:14] And I’m also, I’ve been thinking a lot about the discussion I had with Daniel Hunter and Katie Lauer, at this point it was last summer, about emotionally preparing ourselves for repression and how being able to walk through that emotional process is actually Part of how we strategically prepare for confronting repression, that in a lot of ways, being able to center the voices of people who are living through the repression now for those of us who have not yet encountered it in the same way, is actually there’s not, at the risk of sounding a little woo lets us feel through that process.

[00:33:53] before it happens to us, before it comes to our backyard and our doorstep. And I think there’s an incredible amount of value to that for organizers, for activists who are worried about this kind of thing and who are fretting about the tamping down of dissent, especially now under the second Trump administration.

[00:34:12] So I 

[00:34:12] think that’s a huge contribution. 

[00:34:14] Tåsi Chargualaf: Yeah, I think that’s a really healthy way of looking at it, because I have a similar philosophy around around these kinds of struggles and being a witness to them and then also mentally and emotionally preparing myself for my turn.

[00:34:28] And it’s, I take the Buddhist approach of suffering is inevitable, but it’s also temporary and so is joy and so is everything and if you take everything as a temporary emotion, you are recognized where your privileges and you also recognize that it will be your turn to suffer eventually.

[00:34:47] You don’t have to speed along the process. You can sit in whatever emotion you’re feeling and it helps you pass through that and on to the next phase. So. Yeah, I totally agree with your assessment there. 

[00:34:59] Aja Arnold: And I would say like maybe a slight reframe or from, cause I like preparing for emotionally preparing for resistance maybe has always been like what it feels like instead of like repression, which like, I think the sentiment is the same, just phrased differently, but, and I think that is like on the front of a lot of people’s minds that the like current administration.

[00:35:25] The return of a certain man to a certain house, which is how I’ve been referring to it, because I just, I was not emotionally or mentally prepared, necessarily, to see that man on my phone all the time. And I was like, oh, I need to have some boundaries I will stay informed, obviously, but I just, I like to go look for information.

[00:35:47] I don’t like it thrown at me. You don’t need a 24 7 jump scare. Not if most people don’t, but for me, especially as a journalist and everything we have going on in Atlanta already, and in the South, but, Yeah, with the Cop City endemic, like nationally, that’s something that again, just so it’s confirmation of we called it from the beginning, like journalists.

[00:36:13] And I throw myself in with the community. I’m a local journalist. Like I grew up, I was born and raised in Atlanta. So I say we not like I’m just like, I’m not part of an enterprise. I just literally live in Atlanta. So like the bigger we is community knew that this was, there’s a reason why it happened in Atlanta first and that’s something that like we talk about in a lot of our media trainings and discussing the history of Atlanta, the Atlanta way.

[00:36:41] Which is a phrase of our dynamic here, the 1906 race riots, the legacy papers role and the oppression of black and other marginalized people in the city and poor and working class people. So, to see it happening nationally, my heart just goes out to everyone and I think that we will be okay to also be a little woo It’s happening because it’s necessary.

[00:37:06] So sometimes when I struggle to accept something, it’s this is just the way the tower falls. I, didn’t want this person to be in office. I don’t want cop city to happen, but we can’t control everything. But I do believe as long as we like, have, if we popularize political education, if we like, Keep building mutual aid communities.

[00:37:28] If we just start doing communism now just start supporting each other now. Building communities we will get through it and protecting our trans brothers and sisters is so important. That’s on my mind so much. Our indigenous and two spirit comrades and uplifting voices in media that are not, The non marginalized putting women, trans, queer, black, indigenous, other people of color in actual positions of power in media, not just having them Do the string reporting, the beat reporting, and then filtering it through like white editors all the time we had to stop doing that we’re the people we’re waiting for.

[00:38:07] So that’s how these are the pep talks I give myself when I’m like, preparing for repression, and I’m like, No we have everything we need. We just have to tap into that power. So 

[00:38:18] Tåsi Chargualaf: Yeah. I feel like I’ve distilled my kind of worldview that I’m going to have going forward into a very simplified tell the truth, be a truth teller, because As we can see from a lot of the mainstream media, as soon as that man got back in office everyone started capitulating and hemming and hawing and making all these, logical and factual allowances to allow for the, for disinformation and allow for, fascistic narratives to perpetuate themselves.

[00:38:53] And Being a person that tells the truth, even if you’re not a journalist, is an important role in society, and people will trust you, people will trust the political projects you support, people will trust the community projects you support, if you are telling the truth, if you are telling them the truth.

[00:39:10] Aja Arnold: Amazing. 

[00:39:12] Cayden Mak: And I 

[00:39:12] Aja Arnold: want to say one thing, I’m sorry, can I say one thing about telling the truth, it’s there’s a very important article that came out in the Guardian about, Tortuguita, the shooting of Tortuguita and new documents have shed light on the shooting. Notably at records have been obtained that.

[00:39:32] Appear to confirm that Tort fired a gun at police from inside a tent, which is what police authority have stated since the shooting. They never offered anything to the public to confirm it for themselves, and of course people are skeptical of police. But that’s like the latest report on that shooting, right?

[00:39:48] But something that I noticed that it was coming from actually like From on the ground in communities, was this martyrdom of Torteguiça that just wasn’t accurate, and it wasn’t truth telling, it was a distortion of, I think, Torte’s politic what we know about Torte through talking to their friends, and also seeing excerpts from their journal, because the prosecution tried to enter Torte’s diary, Torte’s alleged diary into the RICO, so, some media workers actually saw it to authorize, to report on it.

[00:40:18] And I’m one of those people. So anyway this claim that TOR had been sitting in a meditative pose, cross legged with their hands up, has been, essentially debunked through factual journalism. But I just want to say that there was no need to distort or even, because it just doesn’t matter.

[00:40:34] Because the state’s very presence in the forest was the problem, and the Guardian Tim Pratt, who is based in, just a shout out to Tim for doing incredible journalism work, that captured so much needed nuance, had another source who is a police officer, which just saying that the very operation itself was problematic, and Torch shouldn’t have been killed no matter what.

[00:40:58] So, Tort was a human being who I think was defending themselves when 50 plus people came upon them in a tent. And that’s what the family’s lawyers are saying in their civil lawsuits against the three officers is that they had no reason to be there. Even if Tortuguita had shot a gun from inside a tent, they had a reason to believe that their life was in danger.

[00:41:20] And Tort believed in armed struggle. And like any human being is going to defend themselves. So I just think it’s a misstep to The nefarious impacts that martyr narratives can have, and the dehumanizing effect, and how it can discredit, a resistance, is something I think to be mindful of, that I just wanted to amplify in the spirit of The truth telling that, like, all we need to do is tell the truth.

[00:41:43] We don’t need to lie about or fabricate truth ever. Because it’s bad. Yeah. As it is. 

[00:41:49] Cayden Mak: Yeah. And there, there is that deeper truth there. That’s like, why were the police in the forest at all? Yeah. 

[00:41:55] Well, as we wrap up here, I’m curious to hear about y’all about what comes next. I know that you mentioned that there are things that you’re thinking about in terms of, like, how can we build solidarity across geography on the issue of cop cities cropping up across the country?

[00:42:11] Aja Arnold: So, well, Tossie and I, when we were talking today, catching up we’re ready to work on the second episode, I think, pretty soon. We are still in need of, financial support for the series. It’s a modest 2, 500 fundraising goal that we have. But. Folks can support that through either a one time donation or becoming a subscriber.

[00:42:31] If you go to our website, MainlineATL. com, you’ll see the article that, it contains all the links to the actual episode and where you can go listen to it on our website. And we’re on Substack and Patreon, MainlineATL, and we’re on Instagram, MainlineATL. We also have a donation portal on our website.

[00:42:53] So, sorry, all those plugs out of the way to say that the defendants are also very thankful and wanted us to have this be a part of our subscription. efforts because we’re trying to build a groundswell of subscriber support to sustain our journalism, which we’ve never leaned into before. But as it turns out, you can’t depend on millionaires and billionaires and foundations to sustain radical journalism.

[00:43:19] Or 

[00:43:19] federal 

[00:43:19] Aja Arnold: funding, apparently. Or federal funding, like, when I say we’re the ones we’ve been waiting for, I literally mean we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. So, feel free to jump in. So Really excited to continue the work on this series. And then aside from that, the media training series that Mayline is curating is particularly for like movement journalism.

[00:43:43] Yeah, it’s the Movement Media Training Series that will be occurring from the beginning of March to September 1st so six months and it’ll be bi weekly, all virtual. This is for, if you are a budding or aspiring journalist or a current journalist that just wants to continue to, deepen your strengthen your skills and deepen your relationship with the knowledge work of, Other people that have been doing this work before you or doing it alongside you, this series is for you.

[00:44:13] If you are a community organizer that’s just trying to learn how to play the game, how to think like a journalist so that you can have relationships with media and put together an effective media strategy, this series is for you. We’ll start with four sessions where two of the groups we’ll have the journalist group and the organizers group will all be together for four, the first four sessions in March, and then we’re going to split and then we’ll go down to bi weekly these are offered On a subscription tier on our Patreon that will open on March 1st.

[00:44:46] So registration is easy. You can sign up for our newsletters on Substack or join our Patreon to keep the updates. And I’ll include the intake survey that we’re take that we’re, like, sending out to people beforehand just to help us get a temp check of what people are trying to do and learn about.

[00:45:03] Those will be in the show notes. Thank you, Josh. And so it’s easy and the and it’s 10 to 20 a month sliding scale. And if you can’t afford that, we’re going to start fundraising for scholarships like next week to try to raise money for the people that can’t afford that like a pay it forward system.

[00:45:21] So yeah, super accessible. We just want to like, popularize this knowledge and these skills because we’re gonna as we will see with the current administration, there’s a particular A resistance that has to form in media, right? Because like journalism comes under attack, like particularly with this administration.

[00:45:37] That seems very intent on escalating its attacks on media and journalists. So we do need more journalists. We particularly need more. Journalists of marginalized communities to step up and not be afraid to learn and we feel like it’s our responsibility to create access to the field.

[00:45:55] And while you don’t need a degree to become a journalist, you do need training. There is security protocol, you should know your rights, you should have some understanding of communication laws and ethics. So, I hope that this is a resource that people outside of Atlanta and Georgia who are being faced with cop city We are qualified, I think, for that particular issue, since we did a lot of the groundbreaking reporting in the beginning, and also worked with community organizers in Atlanta to, get their heads around narrative building and strategy, which has been one of the stronger points of that campaign.

[00:46:27] So, really looking forward to that. And there will be myself and Mainline, Jasmine from Mainline, our editor at Mainline, and also other journalists. Very experienced media movement journalists in the field as well. So that’s my thought. That’s awesome. 

[00:46:43] Cayden Mak: That’s a great offering. 

[00:46:44] Tåsi Chargualaf: Yeah, what Asia said?

[00:46:49] Yeah, I’m always plugging mainline but Asia and I’m gonna I’m gonna blow smoke your way Asia. Asia has been so dedicated and so steadfast and has really just been like a huge inspiration for me personally and just, comrade to comrade. And I just want to see independent journalism and journalists get the support they need so that we can keep telling the truth, because that is so, so, so important going forward.

[00:47:17] We all need to be truth tellers and we need to support the people that have been on the front lines. of truth telling for a very long time, years and years, and to give them their flowers and also make sure that they can feed themselves. 

[00:47:31] Cayden Mak: Yeah, it’s a very real material issue.

[00:47:33] Yes. 

[00:47:34] Cayden Mak: Asia Tassi, thank you so much for joining me today and talking about this really important series and all of your great reporting on StopCopCity movement and what we can be doing now to support each other and build this movement. 

[00:47:47] Tåsi Chargualaf: Thank you so much for having us. Thanks for having us.

[00:47:51] Cayden Mak: Awesome. One more time, you can subscribe to Mainline’s Patreon or Substack for the full podcast series, which we’ll link to in the show notes. And you can also support Mainline’s work and keep up with their Atlanta news coverage at MainlineATL. com.

[00:48:09] Thanks again to Asia and Tasi for making the time to join us to talk about StopCop City and the process of the punishment. Be sure to check out Mainline at MainlineATL. com. This show is published by Convergence, a magazine for Radical Insights. I’m Caden Mock, and our producer is Josh Stro. Kimmy David is our production assistant and does our social media.

[00:48:29] If you have something to say, please drop me a line. You can send me an email that will consider running on an upcoming mailbag episode at [email protected]. If you’d like to support the work that we do at Convergence, bringing our movements together to strategize, struggle, and win in this crucial historical moment, you can become a [email protected] slash donate.

[00:48:48] Even a few bucks a month goes a long way to making sure our independent small team can continue to build a map for our movements. I hope this helps.