Countering Active Clubs: Lessons from the Northwest Pro-Democracy Movement, with Lindsay Schubiner

[00:00:00] Sound on Tape: This podcast is presented by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights. 

[00:00:07] Lindsay Schubiner: We’re seeing involvement of anti democracy groups in, uh, in a lot of local fitness scenes, having fight clubs, and sometimes gyms and communities will have, will see, will sort of unwittingly become hosts to these kind of, male supremacist fight clubs organized by active clubs or other bigoted groups.

[00:00:29] So it’s really, there’s almost no sector, right, that’s, that’s not, uh, influenced or, or maybe influenced, or have to, you know, grapple with issues of anti democracy organizing. Can I see it? After the revolution, we’ll have a better life. You’ll be a better husband. 

[00:00:51] Scot Nakagawa: I’ll be a better wife. We’ll have a jubilation.

[00:00:57] Scott and

[00:01:09] Sue Hyde: I first joined forces about 30 years ago to help defeat anti LGBTQ ballot measures proposed by Christian authoritarian groups. 

[00:01:19] Scot Nakagawa: It was as true then as it is now that those of us who believe in democracy make up a supermajority of people in this country. The challenges How do we go from being the majority to acting like the majority?

[00:01:31] Sue Hyde: We dig into strategy questions like these and prescriptions for change. We talk with expert guests and commentators whose scholarship, political activism, and organizing Define the cutting edge of anti authoritarian resistance. After 

[00:01:50] Scot Nakagawa: the revolution As the science fiction author William Gibson once said, the future is already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.

[00:02:01] This is never more true than with the Pacific Northwest, where our guest today, Lindsey Schubner of the Portland, Oregon based Western State Center is working with communities and organizations to counter the rise of antisemitism, white nationalism, and authoritarianism in general, including violent authoritarian factions like the Proud Boys and others.

[00:02:26] Sue Hyde: Lindsay previously led advocacy efforts against anti immigrant and anti Muslim bigotry at the Center for New Community. She has served as a congressional staffer handling housing, health, and immigration policy, and managed advocacy for sexual health and rights. at the American Jewish World Service.

[00:02:48] Thanks for joining us today, Lindsay. Lindsay 

[00:02:51] Lindsay Schubiner: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here with both of you. Pete 

[00:02:55] Scot Nakagawa: Okay, well, um, Lindsay, you know, let’s just jump right in. So, we know that the Northwest, Oregon and Washington, it appears in particular, though you could correct me about that, have, um, especially rich density, and high level of radicalism among its right wing factions.

[00:03:14] And the level of activity across those states seems particularly high. From my, you know, vantage point, it appears to be in part, at least, true that this is the case that because of something that happened a while ago, the Northwest Territorial Initiative, which was organized by white nationalists and white supremacists and neo Nazis in the late 70s and early 80s.

[00:03:39] In which they decided to ask their followers to relocate to the northwest, to Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and parts of Montana, to create a white homeland there. The Aryan Nations compound in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho that some people in our audience may have heard of was one of the manifestations of that. And in Oregon, a really high level of activity on the part of what we then called hate groups that resulted in, at one point, Oregon being referred to in the national media as the Mississippi of the North.

[00:04:10] Right around 1987 and 88, those stories started to appear. The long term legacy of that. you know, all these years later, is that Oregon and Washington and the Northwest in general appear to be real hot spots. Um, Idaho is one of the places that the Southern Poverty Law Center lists as having the greatest density of white nationalist organizations, and the level of violence in Oregon has been particularly high.

[00:04:36] What do you, what’s your take on what’s happening in the Pacific Northwest and, um, what can we learn from it? 

[00:04:44] Lindsay Schubiner: Yeah, thanks, Scott. And I think there’s a huge amount that we can learn from the Northwest, that history is still resonant throughout the region today, and we’re still seeing its impacts, as you mentioned, in terms of a, you know, a higher level of activity.

[00:05:02] Uh, of white nationalists and other bigoted and anti democracy groups. But the, the opposite side of the coin is that these are communities that, that have experience, uh, pushing back against those movements and oftentimes successfully. And we are, we are seeing, I think, in many ways, On the ground, uh, activity that focuses on, you know, spreading conspiracy theories, uses a lot of intimidation and harassment and engages in political violence tactics that we’re seeing in other parts of the country.

[00:05:42] Absolutely. But that are oftentimes gaining a greater foothold in this region because of that history. And so part of what we’ve seen is that there are a lot of opportunities to organize and a lot of lessons to share, uh, you know, across the nation. And I think in, in part, because it’s because the impacts of white nationalism and other anti democracy groups are so visible, there’s really space for building broad coalitions across political ideology and, uh, across many different communities.

[00:06:20] Because then, you know, in many ways, you’re, you’re face to face with the, with the impacts. And there are, of course, still challenges to that. But that’s a lot of the work that, that we’ve been trying to do. 

[00:06:30] Sue Hyde: So Lindsey, um, can you give us some specific examples of how some of the local communities you work with are being affected by the authoritarian incursions?

[00:06:44] And what are they doing about it? And what are you doing with them? 

[00:06:48] Lindsay Schubiner: Yeah, I’ll give one example, which is, which has been happening recently in Spokane, the group veterans on patrol is known for its outlandish conspiracy theories and first came to prominence while spreading QAnon claims online in 2020.

[00:07:08] And we’ve seen them be active at the border. We’ve seen them be active in our region in Spokane, among other places. And most recently they’ve been spreading conspiracy theories about a humanitarian and social services organizations, including faith leaders for, for trying to help their communities. And I think this focus on.

[00:07:33] Conspiracy theories, uh, is a really important thing that we’re increasingly seeing. And I think a lot of people think, you know, they, they’ll recognize conspiracy theories. They’re really obvious. We know what QAnon claims sound like, but these are, you know, these are political actors acting strategically, working to build political power.

[00:07:56] And oftentimes they’re making decisions about their messaging. They’re making decisions about how they present their themselves and their work that seek to build as much support as possible. And so, uh, it can be a little bit harder to identify. So, you know, for instance, You know, in this example, we’ve seen them spread conspiracy theories, uh, about, uh, you know, child trafficking.

[00:08:19] We saw that happen at the border as well, right? Making wild, uh, and unfounded claims at the border. Anytime they would see children that there was child trafficking going on, even though many of these children were with their, their parents or guardians, we’ve seen them, uh, make similar claims about faith organizations in our region.

[00:08:40] And one example of a strategy that they’ve been using that I want to talk about is distributing flyers within communities that say, essentially, call us if you’re in trouble, we won’t contact law enforcement, and we’ll, and we’ll come help you, right? That speaks to a lot of real concerns that communities have, that there aren’t a lot of options for getting help and the concerns that, that many communities rightfully have with, with law enforcement.

[00:09:10] But when they, when people call veterans on patrol, they’re there, they don’t necessarily realize that they’re calling, uh, a bigoted anti democracy, you know, conspiracist organization. And this also speaks to one of the bigger picture strategies that we see anti democracy groups using where they’re working to undermine democratic institutions in multiple different ways.

[00:09:34] And some of that is through direct attacks on leaders like threats and intimidation. Trying to push people, you know, out of their leadership positions. Another way that they seek to undermine democratic institutions is by claiming that they’re unreliable, not doing their jobs and putting forward themselves as an alternative, as a way to build power, gain followers, and also makes the argument that existing institutions can’t be trusted and aren’t trustworthy.

[00:10:10] Serving their communities and obviously this strategy is particularly dangerous because we all know that there are many ways in which existing institutions are not serving communities in the ways that we would want them to, uh, and we know that there are real issues there with equity, with inclusion and with, uh, you know, engaging in white supremacy culture, but it’s so important for communities to realize that bigoted and anti democracy groups are, are there.

[00:10:40] You know not a better answer. 

[00:10:43] Sue Hyde: And so in Spokane What were the actions taken by folks there to as it were disarm this? Conspiracy crew. 

[00:10:57] Lindsay Schubiner: This is something that’s happening. That’s happened just over the past few days So we’re continuing to work with community leaders with the local government I think one really important strategy when Uh, groups like this come to town and seek to undermine, uh, government, local government and social service agencies is for there to be a really clear message from a number of local leaders, uh, naming who they are, what the strategy is, right.

[00:11:30] And, and, uh, talking about other options for communities. So, uh, you know, that’s one thing we’re working on, but I think, you know, So much of the, the context in which groups like veterans on patrol are building power is one of, uh, an enormous amount of misinformation and disinformation. And that’s why the, you know, they’re making videos to intimidate people, using them to target people, uh, target social service agencies and boost their conspiracy theories.

[00:12:03] And when community members hear from people they trust in the community and from many people they trust in the community that, you know, exactly what this is and what their, what their goals are, that can do a lot, right? We’ve also. We sent out an advisory, we’ve warned and engaged in conversations with organizations that have been targeted or may be targeted by veterans on patrol.

[00:12:31] There’s a lot that individual organizations can and should do to prepare, like making sure their staff know, uh, what these tactics are, not to engage with people, um, seeking to, to film them. And have strategies in place for how to support staff members or their own organizations if they are targeted with harassment, violence or doxxed.

[00:12:56] Um, those are, those are a few of the things, but, you know, a big part of the way we think about it is, yes, there needs to be a safety and security response. But more so there needs to be a political response because these organizations are seeking to shift norms and change the way that people think about democracy and their own communities.

[00:13:20] And that’s a, that’s a challenge that Every single person in a, in a community can potentially have a role in addressing. 

[00:13:32] Sound on Tape: Hello, I’m Marcy Ryan and I’m the print editor for Convergence. If you’re enjoying this show like I am, I hope you’ll consider subscribing to Convergence. We’re a small, independent operation and rely heavily on our readers and listeners like you to support our work.

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[00:14:23] Thank you so much for listening.

[00:14:32] Scot Nakagawa: So, um. It’s interesting, Lindsay, you say that there are kind of experiments, right, in trying to figure out how to engage people around these questions of immigration. I always think of, um, you know, these kind of proposals from the right and, um, outrageous actions from the right as, you know, being sort of, um, as being tests, you know, like that they’re test marketing ideas and by presenting them to the public, they change our ideas.

[00:14:58] So, an example of this would be, you know, the kind of current narrative about Latin American immigrants being rapists and drug dealers, right? It takes a debate that we used to have about immigration that had to do with the role of immigrants in our economy and, you know, other questions of that sort, um, and changes it to one about whether or not immigrants are even human.

[00:15:19] beings. Right? And so, you know, by testing, they figure out who will follow them given that message and then also, of course, um, change the way that the public understands these issues by forcing us to have to defend the humanity of people who are coming into the United States across our southern border.

[00:15:37] That then makes that a question. Right. It’s, uh, once the question is raised, you can’t take it back. Um, said that some of these, um, patrols are basically kind of, um, test marketing, right? Trying to figure out what strategies will work best. So can you give me an example of a situation like that, that people can learn from?

[00:15:56] Lindsay Schubiner: I think these flyers where they’re seeking to essentially serve as an alternative to law enforcement is one example of an experiment. And we’ll, we’ll see if that works for them. And if it’s something they double down on. Or not, right? I think they also have done a number of experiments with different targets, right?

[00:16:16] We’ve seen them target, you know, the authoritarian and anti democracy movement as a whole. We’ve seen them target critical race theories in schools. We’ve, uh, or we’ve seen them target educational efforts to teach teach accurate history about Okay. Race and and power and privilege. We’ve seen them target lgbtq communities the targeting of Social service agencies, I think is something we’ve seen Increasingly and that’s really troubling One other thing I want to point to recently is that at the border, some of the most interesting humanitarian work is being done by faith leaders, but they and their congregations are increasingly at risk from Christian nationalists who want to police the boundaries of what it means to To engage with their faith around issues of, of justice and, uh, around issues of social justice in the world.

[00:17:12] So, you know, I think those are a couple of examples. I think we have seen, you know, there are other tactics like. Flyering with propaganda, uh, that we’ve seen from Patriot Front. And that is a tactic that we’ve seen other groups, particularly active clubs, increasingly adopt the over the past year or so.

[00:17:35] And when these flyers that, uh, share racist information and, and service propaganda for an anti democracy organization show up in a community, it creates an intimidation. Impact lets the community know that they’re, that they’re potentially being targeted for increased activity. Um, and it can potentially serve as a way for those organizations to recruit and have an, have an impact on communities that is much bigger than their actual.

[00:18:09] And so I think that’s, that’s, those are a few reasons why we’ve seen that tactic increase. Um, but I think, uh, the way you framed it, Scott is absolutely right that they’re, they’re continuing to conduct, uh, you know, a lot of experiments they’re operating strategically and doubling down on things that work and work for them means, um, Uh, getting the right kind of attention and, uh, building their power to impact communities.

[00:18:40] And so one thing that we really try to do is keep an eye out for new experiments, new tactics and support communities in having a strong, united response, denouncing it and reinforcing it. inclusive values because sometimes that can really stop it in its tracks, right? It can send a message that this is not a community that is going to be fertile recruitment ground or fertile targeting ground where they can build momentum.

[00:19:15] And I think it’s, it’s really hard to get that, uh, that, you know, that kind of organizing is hard to do, but when it happens, it can be incredibly effective. 

[00:19:23] Sue Hyde: Lindsay, you mentioned active clubs. Could you tell us what that that is? What are those things? 

[00:19:32] Lindsay Schubiner: There’s a national network of active clubs, which are local groups inspired by the white supremacist rise above movement and these are groups of people who see themselves as training and And as potential future fighters, you know in a war Against the current system the current government So these are white nationalist groups that train together and often show up to target community events or, or other groups, uh, in ways that seek to, uh, target and intimidate them.

[00:20:14] So, One thing we’ve seen, um, in our region recently is a network of primarily active clubs called the, the Northwest National Nationalist Network, which has again and again shown up to intimidate pride attendees at LGBTQ plus pride events. And we have worked closely with pride organizers across the region.

[00:20:40] To prepare for this targeting and to enable them to continue to hold pride events, even with these threats. But it’s, it’s been an ongoing trend that we’re continuing to, that we’re still concerned about for this upcoming pride season. They often target, uh, pride events in smaller towns, um, where the intimidation, uh, is they think will be more effective.

[00:21:12] There’s also a positive story here because despite. They’re, uh, troubling, bigoted rhetoric, and, uh, many of their members have a track record of, of being involved in violence. Um, Pride organizers have, have continued to hold Prides and have, uh, done, done really great work to warn their attendees about this kind of targeting, to prepare for the targeting, and, To, you know, hold successful Pride events despite it.

[00:21:41] So that’s, that’s one, uh, you know, that’s one positive story that I, that I want to point to. 

[00:21:46] Sue Hyde: I believe Western State Center has a publication, uh, on that very topic. Uh, can you, can you mention that? How people can find it? 

[00:21:55] Lindsay Schubiner: Yeah. Um, last year, uh, in the lead up to, uh, Pride Month, Western State Center, uh, worked closely with LGBTQ plus organizers, uh, throughout the region, uh, to make plans to respond to transphobic and homophobic threats.

[00:22:14] And, uh, we decided to scale that work by releasing a public facing resource that, uh, showcases. Their strategies, their resilience, their creativity, uh, and this is a guide that includes concrete advice for community organizers, patients facing a lot of different issues from anti democracy movements, as well as allies in government and business and nonprofit spheres to stand up for the rights of the LGBTQ plus community.

[00:22:46] And, you know, in this time of Targeting and the guide is really based on those direct experiences. It’s based on a series of, of experiences and interviews with pride organizers and their, and their learnings. And I think has takeaways for, uh, for, for other organizers who are expecting potential targeting.

[00:23:09] And, you know, one, one key piece of that is, is preparation. That’s such an, uh, that’s such an important piece. 

[00:23:16] Sue Hyde: I’ve read it, it’s a great resource, and uh, we can find it at the Western State Center website. 

[00:23:24] Scot Nakagawa: So, um, Lindsey, I want to just take you back for a minute to the active clubs. You know, these active clubs sound a lot to me like an echo of the KKK.

[00:23:34] Right? Right down to being, referring to themselves as clubs. For people who don’t know it, the KKK started out being kind of a fraternity for returning, you know, soldiers coming back to the South from the Civil War, and really wasn’t a political organization until it evolved into the white supremacist group it was and is in some, um, Right?

[00:24:01] Right. Places around the country still what’s the origins of these active clubs? 

[00:24:06] Lindsay Schubiner: yeah, these active clubs are really only a few years old and The origins trace back to as I said the the rise above movement a white supremacist movement That operates like a, a street fighting club. And it’s really, you know, we see anti democracy movements are social movements, right?

[00:24:30] So we see them grow and evolve, uh, in many different ways and respond to what they see as working and, and switch tactics when something is not. So in, in many ways, this is part of the evolution, the rise above movement has, has roots in, uh, the. Racist skinhead movement in California and active clubs have continued to organize in primarily small groups.

[00:24:58] And we’ve seen them recently doing a little more organizing among themselves, right? Posting about the activities, the hikes they’ve been going on, the training that they’ve been doing. And we’ve also seen them do engage in increasing amounts of, uh, racist graffiti. So that’s, uh, you know, they also share tactics, right?

[00:25:23] So for instance, this is a strategy that we’ve also seen Patriot Front use of engaging in Graffiti and defacement, particularly of civil rights memorials or other, you know, pieces of public art that support, uh, civil rights. So this is the kind of thing that can open them up to civil suits, which, uh, which is a strategy that civil rights organizations have used against Patriot Front.

[00:25:51] So just as they’re, um, learning from. Experiences of other anti democracy movements and hopping on board of strategies that they see are working, we can, we can also do the same thing. 

[00:26:05] Scot Nakagawa: Mm hmm. So are they taking the place of groups like the Proud Boys or are there in addition to? 

[00:26:12] Lindsay Schubiner: I think I would say they’re in addition to the, the Proud Boys.

[00:26:18] And in fact, last year during Pride season, it wasn’t unusual to actually see different groups like the active clubs as part of the Northwest Nationalist Network and Proud Boys groups be in conflict. with each other. That’s another, that’s another thing that is, you know, part of social movements is something, sometimes there’s conflict, even if there’s, uh, oftentimes overall alignment from what we can see, uh, in terms of their strategies.

[00:26:47] So I think it’s, uh, you know, There’s shifting and there’s realignment that we see over time, um, but yeah, I wouldn’t say that they’re necessarily replacing the Proud Boys, but instead, you know, adding to the movement. 

[00:27:00] Sue Hyde: So Lindsey, uh, it seems like, like, is this a men’s movement? Uh, you know, uh, Proud Boys.

[00:27:13] Active club sounds like they come from the gyms, but 

[00:27:17] Lindsay Schubiner: that’s such a good question. And, uh, and a difficult one too, right? Uh, in many ways, the answer is yes. And, uh, misogyny is an important part as is every other form of bigotry, right? Is an important part of how anti democracy groups are organizing. But there are certainly women.

[00:27:39] Involved in this, in these movements. And, uh, you know, historically there’s been great, great work done to look at the role of white women in supporting white supremacist movements, that’s something that we continue to see. I’ve even seen cases of women being members of sort of an auxiliary group supporting the proud boys.

[00:28:04] And I think that, you know, this is happening without. Any diminishment in the strength or, uh, importance of misogyny or, or centrality of misogyny to these movements. But I do think that, you know, just as we are seeing anti-democracy groups use messaging that appeals to as many people as possible, right.

[00:28:30] That downplays the, the more obvious conspiracy theories sometimes strategically. Right. I think we are also seeing them reach out. To more people to build their base. And that includes women. Sometimes that includes LGBTQ plus people. Sometimes that includes people of color sometimes. Um, and it’s a piece of these movements.

[00:28:55] They’re fundamentally authoritarian, right? And anyone can be attracted to authoritarianism. But I think we have to be very aware of, well, also, Remaining really clear on the, you know, fundamental and very dangerous forms of bigotry that are at the heart of their organizing. Um, you know, but absolutely there’s misogyny and anti LGBTQ bigotry.

[00:29:23] Yeah. At the heart of so many of these movements and really, um, informing their outlook, informing their strategies and, um, uh, informing the, the way that they organize. 

[00:29:38] Scot Nakagawa: It does seem like it’s a pretty diverse movement, right? There’s some kind of key ideological points of unity, but, and misogyny definitely runs through it.

[00:29:48] Um, but, um, it’s, there’s some flexibility in there, right? Um, I remember, for example, back in the early 90s, there was a neo Nazi organization called STORM. Sisters Together, opposing race mixing that was very active in Portland, Oregon. And, um, you know, they seemed to us to be inexplicable at the time because of the misogyny of the movement.

[00:30:10] And then as you see how the pieces fit together, um, you know, really what holds them in place is a kind of, uh, you know, sort of longing for, uh, kind of, set of gender norms that then, um, you know, kind of provide a sort of security blanket over your life by creating predictability and what people perceive as stability, um, and, um, but that didn’t make the STORM activists, um, less dangerous, you know?

[00:30:39] I mean, they were quite dangerous and they had quite an impact, I think. 

[00:30:44] Lindsay Schubiner: Yeah, and I think so much of it also comes back to this, you know, ideas about biological essentialism. Uh, that run through, you know, misogyny and, and their thoughts about the, the gender binary that run through anti trans bigotry and the, you know, the racism and anti immigrant bigotry at the heart of many of these movements as well.

[00:31:07] Scot Nakagawa: Yeah. Well, I am with Sue that it does feel like a men’s movement. You know, I mean, a lot of it does feel like a men’s movement. All the way back to the old promise keepers up to today with the patriot prayer people and whatnot. It’s very masculinist kind of culture that is being developed there on the right.

[00:31:26] Sue Hyde: I think what we can settle on is that it is a male supremacist movement. There you go. And there are, and there, and there are women who are supportive of that for the very reasons you’ve stated. So. 

[00:31:40] Lindsay Schubiner: Absolutely. It’s a, it’s a male supremacist movement. And, uh, yeah, as I said, we’re seeing that in, in so much of their activities as well.

[00:31:48] Um, uh, for instance, you know, we’re seeing involvement, uh, of anti democracy groups in, uh, in a lot of local fitness scenes, having fight clubs, and sometimes gyms and communities will have, will see, will sort of unwittingly become hosts to these kind of, uh, male supremacist fight clubs organized by active clubs or other bigoted groups.

[00:32:14] So it’s really, there’s almost no sector, right, that’s, that’s not, uh, influenced or, or maybe influenced or have to, you know, grapple with issues. Have anti democracy organizing. 

[00:32:26] Sue Hyde: Well, clearly we need to step up the game for our pro democracy women and men at the gyms

[00:32:44] Scot Nakagawa: This podcast is presented by the 22nd century initiative a hub for strategy and action for frontline activists National leaders and people like you 

[00:32:54] Sue Hyde: at 22ci. org you can sign up for our newsletter. You can learn from our anti authoritarian playbook, which includes resources on how to block rising authoritarianism bridge across the multiracial majority.

[00:33:19] Scot Nakagawa: Well, uh, so, Lindsey, you know, I want to get to, um, a big question here. Um, the Western State Center, you know, is obviously, I want to make it clear, a very rich source of tactics for organizing around these questions, and people should go to westernstatecenter. org to learn more about, um, what the Western State Center is doing and to access some of their publications, which are, you know, very good guides to how to address these questions.

[00:33:43] these issues in the schools and in other venues and at pride events, et cetera. So please do that. But, um, beyond all of that work of giving people the tools and, um, sort of tactics that they need to be more effective in promoting democracy, um, you’re, you’re calling for a 21st century civil rights movement.

[00:34:03] What is that? Why is that necessary? Tell us more about it. 

[00:34:07] Lindsay Schubiner: Well, you know, Western State Center is a nearly 40 year old civil rights organization Working for inclusive democracy, and that’s the framework in which we, uh, see our work monitoring and countering bigoted and anti democracy movements like white nationalism.

[00:34:26] The white nationalist movement as it exists today. coalesced in the decades following the civil rights movement as a backlash to the social and political gains made by Black people and people of color in the civil rights movement. And it’s really, it’s deeply entwined with structural white supremacy, and it’s clear in its advocacy for an all white nation.

[00:34:47] And It’s primary strategy and the primary strategy in many ways of authoritarian, authoritarian movements at large is to attack civil rights and undermine the institutions that support those rights. So that’s the analysis underlying our call to recognize these movements for what they are and push back, uh, with a large mobilization across society.

[00:35:13] So many of us are seeing our civil rights, uh, be attacked and undermined. Um, and often not just chipped away at, but, uh, you know, removed wholesale. And that’s, that’s the makings of, uh, of a big movement for civil rights. Uh, which is, which is really what we need if we want to not just defend democracy against authoritarianism, but build a more inclusive democracy with stronger protections for civil rights in the future.

[00:35:51] Scot Nakagawa: So, um, you know, given the situation that we’re in, it does appear to me that we need to mobilize supermajorities to the polls and in general in order to be able to defend our democratic freedoms and, um, rights, um, but that A significant portion of the American public view civil rights as a them issue, not an us issue.

[00:36:15] In other words, something that serves minority groups, but not the majority groups. How do we get them on board? 

[00:36:24] Lindsay Schubiner: Our perspective on that question is that every part of society has a stake in democracy and in stable and inclusive governance and That’s, um, and I, I think we are trying to, and I think an important thing for, for people working in this sector to do is to speak more to the, to the self interest and help.

[00:36:59] Uh, help more individuals, more communities, more sectors really see what their stake is in this fight to defend democracy. So for instance, um, working with businesses. In places with significant mobilizations of white nationalism around issues of staff recruitment, right, um, helping them look at, uh, you know, what is their stake in, uh, stable governance and really exposing, uh, the goals of violence and instability and, uh, and targeting, uh, That bigoted movements have, um, working with social services agencies who are, you know, as we’ve talked about increasingly being targeted, working with arts institutions and cultural workers, uh, to mobilize their power, even though so many different communities are seeing their rights.

[00:38:08] Being chipped away at by these movements. I think there’s still a lot of work for us to do to, uh, work together to coordinate and to organize in a way where the, the sum of our efforts is greater than its parts. 

[00:38:28] Sue Hyde: Lindsey, this has been a great conversation and yeah, greater than the sum of the parts. Thank you for that.

[00:38:37] Scot Nakagawa: So, Lindsay, if you have one word of advice for our listeners, what would it be? If, you know, they face a situation where their community is being divided by authoritarians who are perhaps committing acts of violence or harassing people, that sort of thing, what should they do? 

[00:38:54] Lindsay Schubiner: Reach out for support, right?

[00:38:56] I think this is not a, this is not an issue that anyone should have. Individual or community or organization can take on alone, and when we try to the backlash can often be intense. So it’s important to make plans in advance, build relationships in advance and. Speak out. I think that so much of what we’re seeing is a shifting of political norms towards increasing acceptance of authoritarianism and overt bigotry.

[00:39:25] And those are norms that are socially created and can be changed, but that only works. If, uh, if we all speak out together, if we really collaborate and are clear in denouncing white nationalism and bigotry and supporting, uh, each other, I think there’s, you know, solidarity, uh, across communities is such a, uh, is a core piece of, of what’s needed in this moment.

[00:39:54] Scot Nakagawa: All right. Well, thank you very much. 

[00:39:56] Lindsay Schubiner: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:40:08] Sue Hyde: Hey, thanks again for listening. Find more episodes of the anti authoritarian podcast on all of your favorite platforms and also at 22ci. org and convergencemag. org. Direct links to these and other resources referenced in this episode Are in the show notes.

[00:40:34] Sound on Tape: The Anti-Authoritarian Podcast is created by the 22nd Century Initiative and published by Conversions Magazine. Our theme music is After the Revolution by Cari Blanton, and is licensed under Creative Commons. The show is hosted by Scott Nawa and Sue Hyde. Executive producers are James Momm and Tony Esprich.

[00:40:53] Our producer is Josh Elstro, and Yong Chan Miller is our production assistant.