How We Got Here, with Kunthida Rungruengkiat

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain minor errors.

[00:00:00] Sound on Tape: This podcast is presented by Convergence, a magazine for radical insights.

[00:00:08] Kunthida Rungrengk: And, you know, happened 13 times. You may not name this a kind of, you know, violence or repression. You live with it. Welcome

[00:00:36] Scot Nakagawa: to the Anti Authoritarian Podcast.

[00:00:43] Sue Hyde: Hello friends, I’m co host Sue Hyde. Scott and I first joined forces about 30 years ago to help defeat anti LGBTQ ballot measures proposed by Christian authoritarian groups. 

[00:00:56] Scot Nakagawa: It was as true then as it is now that those of us who believe in democracy make up a supermajority of people in this country. The challenge is, how do we go from being the majority to acting like the majority?

[00:01:09] Sue Hyde: We dig into strategy questions like these and prescriptions for change. We talk with expert guests and commentators whose scholarship, political activism, and organizing Define the cutting edge of anti authoritarian resistance. Thank you for joining us.

[00:01:31] Scot Nakagawa: Democracy advocates in the U. S. have a lot to learn from leaders around the world who have been contending with, and even defeating, bald faced authoritarianism of the kind we’re threatened with here, and have been doing so for decades now. Their experiences help us to identify strategies and tactics to adopt.

[00:01:52] No where is this more true than in Thailand, which has a long history of political instability characterized by military coups, authoritarianism, and monarchic influence. Since the 1930s, Thailand has experienced multiple coups with the military repeatedly stepping in to exert control. The most recent military coup occurred in 2014, led by General Prayuth Chan ocha, who imposed a military junta and governed as prime minister until the 2019 elections, but Against this long history of authoritarianism, a pro democracy movement has emerged in Thailand that seeks to challenge military dominance and promote democratic governance.

[00:02:35] Two parties, the Future Forward Party and its successor, the Move Forward Party, have become central to this movement, representing a new generation’s desire for change, transparency, and democracy. Here 

[00:02:49] Sue Hyde: today on the Anti Authoritarian Podcast, we have a veteran of the pro democracy struggle in Thailand and a friend of the 22nd Century Initiative, Kuntita Runjungirat.

[00:03:03] Kuntita, please help me pronounce your last name correctly. Did I get it? 

[00:03:09] Kunthida Rungrengk: Almost there. Rungren Kiat. 

[00:03:13] Sue Hyde: Thank you. Kuntita is a former member of parliament and a prominent Thai academic who has been actively involved in Thailand’s progressive political movement. I’ll do that sentence again.

[00:03:25] She served as the deputy leader of the Future Forward Party and is known for her advocacy and education reform and progressive social policies. On top of all of that, Kuntida is the director of Progressive Movement Foundation in Thailand where she is continuing her work to advance a better future for younger generations of Thai people.

[00:03:48] Welcome, Kundita. 

[00:03:51] Kunthida Rungrengk: Thank you, Sue. Thank you, Scott, for having me. 

[00:03:55] Scot Nakagawa: Oh, it’s our pleasure, Kundita. We always like having friends of the 22nd Century Initiative on the podcast. Many of us in the U. S. struggle to imagine what it could be like to live under a state authoritarianism. So, can you ground our listeners in the conditions the Thai people have been facing, and why you, as someone with a strong grasp of Thai history, think Thailand is in this situation?

[00:04:19] Kunthida Rungrengk: If you live in Thailand at a face value, you would feel that it’s all right. The repression we’re talking about will You won’t feel the violence as physical, well, some people do, but the majority of Thais will not face the physical form of violence and repression, for example. But the inequality, for example, it’s huge.

[00:04:50] If you are in Bangkok, and if you travel to a rural area, You may have unconsumable water system, and can you imagine in 2024, we’ll have places in Thailand that, you know, you open your tap and then the water is not consumable. Let alone drinkable. The drinkable is a drink. So, this form of the country being under the autocratic governance for such a long time, dragged us back.

[00:05:28] And the fact that this has been the status quo of people made, Many people feel numb for such a long time. And Scott, you mentioned coup data. I counted 13. And can you imagine that being in the country where coups are normalized and, you know, happened 13 times? You may not name this. A kind of, you know, violence or repression, you live with it.

[00:06:00] And also the freedom of expression, it has been clear that back in the day when I was young, there are taboo subjects that I could not talk about. You would have to whisper when you talk about the monarchy, for example, but then after the latest coup, you start seeing the number of political cases in Thailand rising and rising.

[00:06:33] It doesn’t have to be from the less majestic or the royal defamation. It can be from, you know, breaking the emergency decree. During the COVID time, it can be from the content of court, for example, you know, that you are you’re shushed and some charges are quite strong and people actually the activists or sometimes ordinary people are put behind bars.

[00:07:05] So there are a group of people who are under threat. Their freedom of expression is basically taken away from them. But many Thais will live in their circumstance where they feel that this type of not being able to express is normal. Because it has been ongoing for such a long time. 

[00:07:34] Scot Nakagawa: So the, you know You talk about the distribution of repressive violence being really uneven, so that must have an extremely divisive effect, yeah?

[00:07:44] Kunthida Rungrengk: Right. Right, because I’m talking from just, you know, Bangkok and vicinity and some other provinces. I’m not yet talking about some specific areas of Thailand where, for example, the three provinces in the southernmost part of Thailand that have been under the emergency laws. For more than a decade and there, there have been insurgencies, you can see barracks, you can see military people in military uniforms with arms in those area as a normal part of your life and the Thai, Thai people basically growing up As a country seeing this and feel that it is part of the, of their life, but it has changed.

[00:08:41] This has changed from the latest coup. Many things have changed actually. The perception of the tie has changed and we can go to that later.

[00:08:55] Sound on Tape: Hi there. This is Caden, the publisher of Convergence and the host of our weekly News magazine Block and Build. If you’re enjoying this show, I’d love to invite you to join me every Friday for a breakdown of the headlines with the kind of insight and analysis you’ve come to expect from Convergence Magazine.

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[00:09:47] Thanks for listening.

[00:09:55] Sue Hyde: Well, you know, in the face of these conditions, Thai progressives have become examples of the kind of creative, forward looking, risk taking leadership. Thanks for listening. And endurance and you’re making real progress to build a pro democracy Or at least an anti authoritarian majority in thailand can you share some of the victories you’ve scored and key strategies and tactics that you’ve used to achieve these?

[00:10:27] Kunthida Rungrengk: I think first thing first You the clear goal of the movement and we’re looking at myself as ourselves as a movement Not just a political party Not just a CSO as a foundation, not just a bunch of people, but more like an ecology. This is the, I think the first strategy that, that you really need when it comes to this movement.

[00:10:53] And the goal has been clear. We need to change Thailand. We need to reform. We need to modernize Thailand in all aspects. And when you have these two combined, plus a long term vision of all this, I don’t think we’re doing this and we expect the change overnight. And it has been extremely clear for us that things will take time and it won’t be easy.

[00:11:24] There will be a roller coaster. This has been expected. If you go back, the origin of future forward was at the right time of the history as well. I think that kind of a moment where you decided that, you know, your country needs this is also very important. If you look at the date, And time point in time in history where future forward started.

[00:11:57] It was after King Rama nine passed away. So the Rama ninth consensus in the society was not there. The society was left polarized. between the red and the yellow. If you remember, you know, the airport shut down and also the crackdown and everything, then, you know, looking at all circumstances, we realize that Hey, there must be a vehicle, a political party in the parliament who’s progressive enough to drive progressive agendas and, you know, push Thailand to the progressive and democratic direction because looking around we didn’t see any at that time.

[00:12:50] And with such condition in the society, we thought this. Was the right time to have future forward party. So future forward party was pretty much a new at that time. And also we made sure that we’re pushing new agendas and not just the agendas and not just the policies, everything about future forward was new ways of doing politics.

[00:13:15] You know, setting up new traditions in the Parliament, things that you may feel normal. Sue asked about the victory. You know, discussing issues in Parliament with statistics, numbers, which it has not been the case, but we were able to start that tradition. It has to be done with facts. You know, with evidence with numbers that was done during future forward days.

[00:13:48] And we also set up this kind of policy led politics. So if you look at we, we are mixed system, so we have party lists and also constituency. So in our top 10 party list candidates, 1, 9, 10. You see who will run which ministry. So from qualifications, competence and all that. So.

[00:14:21] I’m talking about the new traditions that have been put in place in Thai parliament, and that’s what we want. You know, when it comes to change, it’s not just talking about the structure and the system, but I think we need to also talk about the culture of politics. And that has been changed already since future forward days.

[00:14:42] But if you look at the structure, we have always been opposition, right? And many people are wondering like you are the opposition and how can you make changes? It, you know, how can you pass laws since future forward days, we have been advocating for same sex marriage. And, you know, from marriage equality.

[00:15:04] It has been there. We talked about that in a very inclusive way. And when it passed on to move forward party did it in such a beautiful and inclusive way. way we have a woman talking about this, you know, a man talking about this is the issue of all, not just a group of people, but it’s, you know, it’s the rights.

[00:15:27] So now in this government, but by the way, we have the third party because move forward party has already been dissolved and we’re now having the third one the people’s party. So in six years, we’re having like three political parties. So. And this government saw this support of Thais and see how important it is.

[00:15:53] And they cannot just keep denying that, you know, Oh, this is something that I can just say no as a government. So, the law has passed lower house, upper house. And already registered in the Royal Cassatt, meaning January next year, we’re going to be the first country in Southeast Asia that implementing this law.

[00:16:17] And of course, even though we’re not there as a government, this has been the agenda that we started with the movement of the CSO and the the, you know, the Thai activists who have been working on these issues for so many years. So, yeah, it, even though as a, as an opposition, you, this is a, as a way to go.

[00:16:40] You own the agenda and then you make sure that you create this public awareness and support and no matter who becomes the government, they will have to support this agenda. 

[00:16:55] Sue Hyde: So for those of us who are maybe unfamiliar with One of the things you said, future forward as a political party was dissolved.

[00:17:08] What did that mean? How did that happen? 

[00:17:12] Kunthida Rungrengk: Right. Yes, see, it has been so normalized. It should not be. So I was in, it was started in 2019. And then in 2020, we 

[00:17:22] Sound on Tape: were 

[00:17:23] Kunthida Rungrengk: parliamentarian for, I think I was parliamentarian for 11 months. And then the party was dissolved. So we were really young as a political party, but Scott mentioned about the fact that, you know, the military junta had been in power for such a long time.

[00:17:42] They were not just in power. They also laid out the structure to make sure that they can maintain their power. And those structures, for example, the constitutional court and all, you know, all the judges in constitutional court were appointed by the military junta, for example, or their own constitution that drafted in the way that create this gridlock and also give the power to the upper house For example, to vote for the prime minister and that kept move forward party from governing, even though move forward party won the majority in the election.

[00:18:24] And when it comes to the dissolution, it was this constitution, constitutional court that ruled that the financial technicality issues of fundraising of future forward party was, you know, there was this. Irregularity that was this falls in the way we fundraise. So, The party is dissolved and another mechanism they use is the election commission.

[00:18:52] So the election commission filed a case to the constitutional court. The constitutional court made that decision and the same goes with move forward party. But move forward party is different. Move Forward Party had been in opposition for the whole term, four years, and they decided to campaign for the amendment of the less majestic law, the royal defamation law, which has human rights issues.

[00:19:21] Someone in Thailand, you can be a person and file the complaint against political party. So there is a complaint sent to the election commission that, you know this should be against the constitution da. And then the case was sent from election commission again to the constitutional court and the constitutional court made again.

[00:19:43] verdict, the decision first, that the action of campaigning or the 40, our 44 MPs endorsing the amendment of the lesbian justice law is equivalent of overthrowing the constitutional monarchy, basically the current regime of Thailand. So, so you see that the level of the accusation is harsher. Because the popularity that move forward party earned so we came from 81 seats the first election as future forward 81 out of 500 to move forward 151 so we grew basically double in four years.

[00:20:31] and won the election. You can see why the establishment decided to put a stop there for the movement. And I can tell you that this has been changed. The tactics of the authoritarians are changed. The 13 coups, 12, been, you know, with tanks and military uniform. violence in the street, but now the constitutional court, the election commission, the laws are used against us.

[00:21:15] So we call it a law affair, you know, as weaponizing the laws against the opposition, basically. But it has been clear that from future forward days, We got this solved. The party decided to carry on the mission. I’m in the band for 10 years as an executive member that I’m disqualified to contest for 10 years as a deputy leader of a future forward party.

[00:21:50] And so the move forward party continued. The second phase of the journey. And now the move forward party was also dissolved and the executive members faced the same fate that I did. So the disqualification, the ban for 10 years, not being able to run. And now the people’s party. I’m not sure how you feel about this from that side of the world.

[00:22:19] Does it sound like something that can happen in a country like Thailand? 

[00:22:26] Scot Nakagawa: I honestly do believe that it can. I also believe the U. S. can move in the direction that Thailand has moved because of the kind of democratic backsliding here. So there’s a lot that we can learn from one another, I think.

[00:22:42] Kunthida Rungrengk: Right. Yeah. So if you look at the scenario in Thai context, of course, the military and the monarchy. As well as what I call the monopolies, you know, the, those corporates working together, right. You know, in this together, but then we also have two more M’s the mass and the media mass people.

[00:23:14] And it’s clear people have expressed their wish and yeah, I do. I do wish that the democratic movement will turn into this direction people pride. Their their vote, they still have faith in parliamentary system. And to me, it is the most important part of doing this as a political party.

[00:23:36] When I was a deputy leader of future forward party, and then I got banned, I was interviewed and asked, what was the most important thing? Or what was the thing that you are proud of the most? And I said, I think I’m so proud to be a part. Of the movement that could restore the faith in parliamentary process, and it is so important.

[00:24:02] People were so angry when future forward where this was dissolved because they didn’t know what happened, right? They didn’t know, you know, whether move forward party would function, right? We didn’t know. Nobody knew. And after that, you saw youth led demonstrations across Thailand, mass youth led demonstrations to express their anger.

[00:24:28] And then COVID came. The demonstrations stopped. Move Forward Party did their job as opposition. And then the term ended. And then there was the general election, May 2023. And then people learned that they have to express their wish in the ballot boxes. And they did. And they just did that and, you know, us as a political party or movement, thought, well, well, yeah, we were third largest party in future forward day.

[00:25:05] We could become the second party, perhaps this time. And then, you know, next time, perhaps the party could win, but then people decided that, you know, they won’t change. People’s Party, the third generation, the speed is even, you know, faster. It took Move Forward Party four years to accumulate 100, 000, around 100, 000 members.

[00:25:39] It took People’s Party seven days to reach 70, 000 members. And also 20 million baht, that is like, how much, a little bit less than 1 million dollars of donation, direct donation for the party within 7 days. They were able to raise that. So, again, people believe that, you know, They still believe in this vehicle and again, this is important because to make sure that in 27 that we will have the next general election, people will still wish that, you know, their votes will be respected and they will be able to see their preferred choice.

[00:26:29] Of political party being able to govern and again to me maintaining this faith in, you know, Parliamentary system has always been a very, an integral part of the whole movement. We have to make sure that people can trust their politicians. We have to deliver policies that are executionable and we and the party has been working extremely hard on that.

[00:27:02] Policies that are proposed must have clear vision on where the budget is from. And it has to be presented to the people and they can make the informed decision and that has already been done in move forward day and now with people’s party. I think they go. I think they are going to another level. I think they’re going to the executionable policies with, you know, step 4 plans of the implementation and not just policy, but they, you know, They are ready to govern and when I mentioned as a movement, political party is working at national level.

[00:27:44] The progressive movement is working with the local level. What progressive movement is doing is to actually develop democracy at grassroots level. So people start understanding that, you know, the basic services around them are run by the municipality, by the elected politicians at their home. You elect them.

[00:28:09] You have to make them work for you. So we we help we support the local candidates who run in the past election under progressive movement to make life changing project, which sounds normal to you again, a drinkable water project in Thailand. One municipality did it, started it. Successfully.

[00:28:35] And now they are moving towards the smart water system where, you know, people in the municipality can look at the website of the municipality and check the quality of the water. There is a dashboard. You can even see you know, the water leakage in Thailand. It has been the big case of water loss and all that.

[00:29:03] So what I’m talking about is not just local policy. Now, the current government is taking that policy and trying to do the same thing. So, as an opposition to think of restrictions rather than possibilities, I don’t think it’s the way to go. What we’re doing. Is as a movement is we think of possibilities we are labeled as impossibility by others since future forward days Oh, no, you’re a bunch of young kids.

[00:29:43] But in the way that we look at our movement, it’s about possibilities, not the restrictions. So, the Drinkable Waters is one example of this project. Yes, it is implemented in a small municipality, but you can see that, you know, it can be scaled as the national policy. And it has been proved this particular municipality received government awards.

[00:30:12] They cannot even say no to this. It has been so successful that they have to award the municipality and finally take this in as, you know, they can name it other ways, but, you know, they are doing clean water projects for the people, for the Thai people. And eventually, as for us, we share, we are so happy to share know how, technology, everything.

[00:30:45] We think that this is a public knowledge and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it as long as the people benefit from this. Thanks. So this is how we look at it. We look at it in the long term. We make sure that people have faith in the parliamentary system and also at their local level politics, and they participate as well in politics at all level when it comes to participation were quite creative in that we do a lot of hackathons.

[00:31:20] With, you know, different issues and people join. Can you imagine Thai people are, they enjoyed doing budget hackathons in, I think a couple of months ago, the deputy speaker of the house of the Thai parliament opened up the parliament and open up their parliament data, the budget data for people to hack.

[00:31:44] Can you know, to see whether the money spent is, It’s efficient or not. There were 400 people registered, a 100 stayed overnight in the parliament to do the proper hackathon. It has to be done overnight. So they took their sleeping bags and stayed in the parliament for that activity. Yeah, so these are actually from us listening a lot to people and make sure that we open up the space for people.

[00:32:29] Scot Nakagawa: This podcast is presented by the 22nd Century Initiative, a hub for strategy and action for frontline activists. National leaders and people like 

[00:32:38] Sue Hyde: [email protected], you can sign up for our newsletter. You can learn from our anti-authoritarian Playbook, which includes resources on how to block rising authoritarianism bridge across the multiracial majority, and build an inclusive, pro-democracy movement in your community.

[00:33:04] Scot Nakagawa: So Tita, you know, you say possibility, not restrictions. And I couldn’t agree with you more. I remember, you know, a number of years ago I was in Manila and I was doing some training with Filipino activists who were trying to confront their authoritarian government. And I met a young woman who was the leader in the Future Forward Party.

[00:33:26] She was also a trainer there. And she showed us some of the political ads that had been run, and they were the most joyful, colorful, multiethnic celebrations, , you know, in a repressive situation like Thailand, you know, that just ignited people’s imaginations, right? Because it helped them.

[00:33:46] It just spoke to the very deep kind of longing to be able to just express yourself and live peacefully. But more than that, you know, when after I saw that ad, I was just so excited. So I asked her, you know, so now what’s next, you’ve won all these seats in government. What’s going to happen? And her reply was, we will do as much good as we can until the junta pushes us out.

[00:34:09] And that answer just blew me away. The resilience and determination she showed was just really inspiring. So where does that kind of metal gumption and pluck come from and what’s next for Thai democracy advocates? What’s next for the movement? 

[00:34:27] Kunthida Rungrengk: We, the resilience come from the fact that we realize how much expectation and hope is on our shoulders as the Thais already express.

[00:34:39] their wishes. You know, we have to only work harder to make sure that the expectations are met, no matter what we are as opposition, as government, as everything. So we have to be better every day in what we do. And 27 will be extremely important, actually, starting from next year, Thailand will have their local elections coming at all levels.

[00:35:12] So there are three levels of local elections spreading across, you know, next year, starting already, perhaps, this is not official yet, this is my calculation, it’s perhaps the end of January. So, The largest level, the provincial level, will kickstart first. And this is super important, why? Because the movement has not had candidates winning in this level.

[00:35:41] The fact that progressive movement has been working at local level with you know, municipalities and sub district representatives, meaning the mayors, meaning that we accumulated the knowledge on how to navigate the bureaucracy system at the local level and also with the civil servants. But we need more under in depth understanding at the provincial level.

[00:36:11] So this next year will be extremely important and again with this possibility, not restrictions, right? Another tradition that we started at the local level is the local candidates should come from political party so that they could have accountability. Right. If you’re just, you know, a powerful influential family in that particular area and you have no accountability.

[00:36:44] Right. So, People’s Party are sending their candidates. So are the political parties in Thailand got questions from the people in different places of Thailand who are you which party are you from? They’re forced to answer that particular question. So this I think this is a big part of the change when it comes to the political tradition especially at local level where the dynamics is so different.

[00:37:12] As a movement we may not, the dynamics at the local level is much more. You know, with family dynasty type of politics in the patronage system, it’s a lot of challenges to navigate. For the national election, it will happen in 27, if the term ends you know, the four years. And at that time, it’s a defining moment of Thailand.

[00:37:43] Already, this is, you know, the third election where many Thai people have expressed what they want. And what if, in the next election, in, you know, 27, Okay, people’s party wins, the majority, they, you know, they can govern and people can make the decision whether, you know, the people’s party is doing well or not.

[00:38:11] But what if the people’s party win, but could not govern for whatever reason, the dissolution could come again, the coup, we never know, right? So with that kind of scenarios, then It could push Thailand in, in, in quite a number of ways. I’m not sure if people will be frustrated because they have tried to do everything in a peaceful way and it doesn’t work.

[00:38:51] Will they go to the street? With the coup, we could, again, go back into those period. And if I were to compare this, it was like, if you look at Thai history during the 76th of the Students Uprising in Thailand, with the student movement, Thailand almost, you know, at that time, got a chance. To escape the cycles of military rule, it wasn’t successful.

[00:39:35] 27 is exactly like that moment, whether we could get out of that cycle or not, and how people would react if we could not get out of the cycle. So I think the mission of The movement is bigger. It is about making sure that constitution amendment is there. So there’s no structural barrier, making sure that people’s party could win 270 seats out of 500.

[00:40:10] So that will be one party. In the government. Why? Because you, if you look at the landscape right now the government coalition is the combination of the red and the yellow shirts, basically combined you, you have military led political party who staged the coup. While also having the party, the current government, the leading current government, Puyathay party, who was affected by the coup.

[00:40:49] They were ousted by the coup together in the same coalition at this moment. So basically I think Thailand is polarized again in the way that there is this coalition You know, the past. And the People’s Party for the future. 

[00:41:14] Scot Nakagawa: Well, thank you so much, Kuntila. It’s always a pleasure talking to you.

[00:41:18] We learned a lot, I think, on this episode. You know, one of the things I felt like I got from this is that we really do have to foster trust in institutions, however cynical we may be of them. But not just by asking for people’s trust, but by having those institutions win them, win that trust, right, to demand greater accountability and transparency and to make sure that grassroots news are represented in those spaces so that people can see themselves reflected there.

[00:41:47] Also then, you know, what you said about the party being a movement. I think that’s absolutely right. You know, we need to have. the kind of moment where people feel recognized and seen and feel like participating in politics is more than just casting a vote, but also making your voice heard in so many other ways.

[00:42:05] And then of course, don’t shy away from controversial issues. You talked about same gender marriage, you know, inclusion has to include everybody. And inclusion is part of what makes democracies secure. Yeah. And then, of course, the thing that I love the most is this idea of possibilities, not restrictions.

[00:42:23] That ad that I saw in Manila just keeps coming back to my mind. I’d never seen a political ad like it, and it made me so happy. And not just me, but everyone in the room. You know, we were laughing. We just were so excited to see this sort of representation of how things could be, right, so that it’s about, this is how you could live.

[00:42:43] As opposed to just, this is what policies we need. And that was just huge. And it’s just such a delight that, you know, this is coming to us from Thailand where, you know, we all know there’s a tremendous amount of repression, but I guess pressure makes diamonds. Yeah. You have innovative and new ideas about how to do politics and you’ve created a whole new generation of leaders there.

[00:43:06] It’s just amazing. 

[00:43:08] Kunthida Rungrengk: Thank you. 

[00:43:09] Sue Hyde: And I love the focus on drinkable water taking that issue right down to the local level where you can actually make change. 

[00:43:22] Kunthida Rungrengk: Yeah. 

[00:43:22] Sue Hyde: Absolutely. That’s great. 

[00:43:25] Kunthida Rungrengk: Yeah. Possibilities. 

[00:43:29] Scot Nakagawa: Yes. Yes. Possibilities. Absolutely. Even in the most difficult circumstances, there’s always possibilities and people hold so much in them.

[00:43:39] If you give them a vehicle to express it, you know, they’ll step up. 

[00:43:42] Kunthida Rungrengk: All 

[00:43:45] Scot Nakagawa: right. Well, thank you, Kundita. It’s been a real pleasure and I look forward to talking to you again. Both Sue and I are really looking forward to continuing to be in your company. 

[00:43:57] Kunthida Rungrengk: Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Sue. Looking forward to talking to you again soon.

[00:44:03] Scot Nakagawa: Yes Hey, 

[00:44:16] Sue Hyde: thanks again for listening find more episodes of the anti authoritarian podcast on all of your favorite platforms and also at 22ci. org and convergencemag. org Direct links to these and other resources referenced in this episode are in the show notes.

[00:44:42] Sound on Tape: The Anti Authoritarian Podcast is created by the 22nd Century Initiative and published by Convergence magazine. Our theme music is After the Revolution by Carsey Blanton and is licensed under Creative Commons. The show is hosted by Scott Nawa and Sue Hyde. Executive producers are James, mom and Tony Esberg.

[00:45:00] Our producer is Josh Stro and Yong Chan Miller is our production assistant.